Heidi McGowen: Know Your Worth
Episode Description:
Heidi McGowen has worked as a production manager or unit production manager on shows like INSECURE, BLACK-ISH, SILICON VALLEY, and BODY OF PROOF. She has also worked as an Assistant Director on feature films like BLACK DOG, BIG MOMMA’S HOUSE, SIGNALS, and on the TV side for shows like GIRLFRIENDS and UGLY BETTY. Heidi has earned membership into the Directors Guild of America and is a 20-year film and TV veteran. In 2021, she was nominated for a primetime Emmy for her work on BLACK-ISH. In this episode Heidi talks with Anya about her unlikely path to Hollywood, the best advice she’s been given and how she learned to ask for what’s she’s worth.
TRANSCRIPT:
Anya Adams (00:11):
Welcome back to Sista Brunch with me, Anya Adams. Sista Brunch is a podcast about black women and non-binary folks striving and thriving in media, entertainment, and the arts, and we can't wait to share more stories with you over the next few weeks. My co-host, Fanshen Cox is out today. We will miss her, but she will be back. Don't worry. Today's guest is production manager and producer Heidi McGowen. Heidi has worked as a production manager and unit production manager on shows like Insecure, Blackish, Silicon Valley and Body of Proof where we worked together. On Insecure and Blackish, she also worked as a producer. She's also worked as an assistant director on feature films like Black Dog, Big Mama's House, Signals, and on the TV side for shows like Girlfriends way back in the day and Ugly Betty. Heidi has earned membership to the Directors Guild of America, and is a 20 year film and television veteran. In 2021, she was nominated for a primetime Emmy for her work on Blackish. So excited to have you here, Heidi.
Heidi McGowen (01:11):
Thank you, Anya, and thank you for having me. I know we've been trying to do this for a while.
Anya Adams (01:17):
We have, we have, but you've been so busy working on Blackish. You just finished the final season. What was that like?
Heidi McGowen (01:25):
We did. It was bittersweet. The hardest part was looking at the kids and seeing how big they've gotten and how they've all grown, and they're, I want to say teenagers, but they're not even teenagers, grown up people.
Anya Adams (01:41):
So true.
Heidi McGowen (01:43):
That kind of thing, the relationships, but at the same time, excited about moving on to a new chapter. Bitter sweet.
Anya Adams (01:50):
How many years was that, eight years?
Heidi McGowen (01:53):
Eight seasons, and I did the pilot also, so eight seasons of Blackish, but I will also add I did girlfriends back in the day. That was eight seasons, but I only did seven of them. So, 15 years of Tracy and I being together.
Anya Adams (02:14):
That's impressive.
Heidi McGowen (02:15):
That never happens.
Anya Adams (02:16):
That never happens. Those are two incredibly paradigm shifting shows about black people in general. It's really cool that you were a part of that and got to creatively set some credible standards in the industry and for the culture.
Heidi McGowen (02:35):
I'm very proud of both of those shows in that I was a part of them and that they are shows that are... At least Girlfriends is very fondly remembered. Blackish seems like it's heading down that same path as being fondly remembered, but those are huge. Those are huge in my career and set me up for other stuff.
Anya Adams (02:58):
Yeah. We jumped into Blackish and normally what we do, Heidi, I'm so sorry, we do talk about, how did you get from little Heidi McGowen to super producer Heidi McGowen. Can you talk to us a little bit about your journey? How'd you get here?
Heidi McGowen (03:15):
I had been talking to a friend today about how I never intended to be in this business and that really my job goals were to be a insurance investigator and that I wanted to be a part of that, and then maybe if things worked out in the insurance adjusting world and investigating that I would possibly work for the government and the NTSB and do investigations into accidents and things like that.
Anya Adams (03:51):
My God.
Heidi McGowen (03:52):
I know. It's very strange. But what happened was that I had applied to all these internships when I was a junior in college, everybody was applying for their internships to go do whatever. There were three paid internships and I applied to all of those and I did not get accepted into any of those programs. I was so upset, but I had to figure out because I was like, I got to do some kind of internship, and I got accepted into CNN's internship program. It was unpaid. I was like, seriously? So, I ended up going to Atlanta and spending three months there and I was an intern at CNN and I had to have a side job because I was like, how broke can you possibly be?
Heidi McGowen (04:49):
I ended up working at a ice-cream shop where some nice little man took mercy on me and gave me a job for literally I would work two hours a day setting up the ice-cream shop. So, cutting the cakes, making sure all the things were in place, and then I would leave. It was two hours a day that I guess he didn't want to do because the ice-cream shop opened up at eight and they would do coffee or whatever. I got there at five and set everything up and then he would come in and then I would leave and take the train down to the Omni and go to CNN and work the rest of my day in there.
Anya Adams (05:33):
What were you doing as an intern?
Heidi McGowen (05:35):
What's funny is what I remember about being an intern was going to a bunch of meetings and not understanding anything that was going on, not understanding what people were talking about, because you it was an ongoing thing. So, they had projects and stuff going on that I didn't know what they were talking about, but they would do their best to try to clue me in as to what they were talking about, but when I didn't have to be in my office or going to those meetings, I was running all over the place. I would go in when they would be doing the news, and one of the anchors was super nice and she would just tell me, come on in, and just let me watch. All the different things were included in that one office building. So, I would go up to the other floors and just walk around and see what was going on on the other floors. I ran into Jacque Stowe in the elevator one time and his son. It was like on the 25th floor, so I just rode with them all the way to the...
Anya Adams (06:44):
That's like live television and news and you just finished up. So, what happened?
Heidi McGowen (06:51):
It was incredible. It was a great experience, and at the end of the internship, they take you out for a lunch and then they send you on your way, give you a little gift or whatever. When I graduated from college, I worked in that department and the guy who I worked for.... So, Ted Turner owned a million companies, and so he created this other company and my boss was going to run that company. He hired me and I was his first employee and I had just gotten out of college. It's so funny now, because I think about we were foreshadowing the future. It was a cable distribution company that sold programming to people who own satellite dishes. So, if you owned a satellite dish out in Arkansas, we sold you HBO a la carte, Showtime and all this stuff, which is like how you get all the streaming services now.
Heidi McGowen (07:57):
I just remember when it was happening thinking why don't they bundle these things? And then they could, and then they bundled it up and they sent stuff out. But I think the only reason I got that job is because before I finished my internship, I had written a proposal about how CNN should be at the airport. I know. It's crazy because I wrote this whole proposal on why it should be at the airport and that they should have it at every gate and all this other stuff only for them to be like, that's great, but we've already started that process. We're already doing that, but what that experience showed me, because at first, I was like, no, they're stealing my idea.
Heidi McGowen (08:45):
I can't be the only person who thought of this, but what it showed to them was that she's thinking on the right track, and so that's why I think Marty ended up hiring me. I worked at that company for one year and then the company got bought by a big cable company, and then they fired all of us and they gave us our little partings.
Anya Adams (09:11):
Severance.
Heidi McGowen (09:11):
Whatever. Yeah. Our severance and all that. I cried for three days, because I was like, I don't have a job and I live in Atlanta and my rent was $400.
Heidi McGowen (09:29):
I was distraught, and then I was like, I need to get a job. So, I was distraught on Friday and then Monday I was job hunting. It was, to me, an opportunity to just think of anything you want to do, and just write a letter and see if these people will see you. And so I wrote to every TV station in Atlanta and I got called by one station in for an interview and I came in and they hired me. I was the assistant in the sales department, but because I was there, I got a chance to do all sorts of stuff. So, I ended up working on a lot of their long form productions. I worked on their game show, their local game show.
Anya Adams (10:17):
My God. Fun.
Heidi McGowen (10:18):
Which was great because we got free Chick-fil-A every Thursday.
Anya Adams (10:23):
Hilarious.
Heidi McGowen (10:24):
Which is why I can't eat Chick-fil-A now, because I hate it every Thursday for three years. They have weather watch and you could volunteer to work on weather watch, so I would work on that.
Anya Adams (10:38):
Well fun.
Heidi McGowen (10:39):
The voting stuff. I would volunteer to work on that. I had a great experience there too. Also, they had a radio station, so I used to do voiceover work for them, which [inaudible 00:10:51].
Anya Adams (10:51):
[inaudible 00:10:51].
Heidi McGowen (10:53):
So, it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun those early experiences.
Anya Adams (11:00):
This is Sista Brunch with me, Anya Adams. Fanshen is away today. Stay tuned for more of our conversation with our amazing guest producer and production manager, Heidi McGowen. We're back. Check out more of our conversation with Heidi McGowen. This is all live stuff. So, I'm trying to figure out how you jumped from live to series to drama.
Heidi McGowen (11:40):
So what happened was I lived literally a mile and a half from my job with my $400 rent. I was driving to work one day and I got stopped and I got stopped by some kid with a radio, and I was like, what are you doing? I got to go to work. And he was like, we're just going to finish this scene.
Anya Adams (12:05):
Like a walkie talkie.
Heidi McGowen (12:06):
Yeah. I was like, what? And that's how I figured out. This is a long time ago and I was like, my God, they shoot movies in Atlanta.
Anya Adams (12:19):
Yeah.
Heidi McGowen (12:20):
So, I started talking to that kid and I started asking a bunch of questions. His name was Jonathan Watson and he is now a director.
Anya Adams (12:33):
Amazing.
Heidi McGowen (12:33):
So crazy. I know. It's crazy, and I started asking him a bunch of questions and he gave me an overview of how PAs, what PAs do and all that kind of stuff. So then I signed up for these classes that they had in Atlanta that were for cable TV, because cable TV, if you have a cable session, you were required to offer these community service classes, whatever. So, I did those classes and I found out there was some kind of TV movie shooting in town and this black woman who was a UPM and producer named Grace Blake out of New York, someone told me that she was around or whatever, and having been working at the TV station, I noticed that everybody sent gift baskets for things.
Anya Adams (13:20):
Hilarious.
Heidi McGowen (13:23):
I sent Grace Blake a gift basket and asked her if I could come in and talk to her, and I did. We had a really nice conversation. I probably talked to her for 40 minutes, and then she recommended me to a production coordinator and to hire me as a office PA. I forgot to add the other important part of that story is, so when I was working at the TV station, there was a movie that was coming in town that was going to shoot. They were going to have a local goal TV station, so they needed a tour. The news director told them I would give them the tour. That director who I gave the tour to was Michael Schultz.
Anya Adams (14:10):
If you guys don't know who Michael Schultz is, this guy is an institution.
Heidi McGowen (14:14):
He directed Car Wash.
Anya Adams (14:15):
Yeah. He's been a around. He can tell you stories about Eddie Murphy. He's this amazing, amazing director. That's so cool.
Heidi McGowen (14:23):
And at the very end of giving him the tour of the station, I don't know what came over me, and also I might add, Michael Schultz who is also dropped dead gorgeous, and I think he's in his eighties now, he still dropped it gorgeous, but back then, I was just flustered and at the very end, I just said to him, I'm going to work for you one day. I'm going to work for you one day. He was like, okay, thank you. Thank you little crazy girl. Cut to, I don't know, six weeks or maybe three months later, and when he arrived to Atlanta in the offices and came to the production office, there I was.
Anya Adams (15:12):
That's amazing.
Heidi McGowen (15:13):
I was like borderline stalker. He was so just fantastic. That was the first movie I ended up working on was with Michael Schultz and it was called Living Large. I quit the TV station. It was funny because called my parents and so I had been working at this ABC affiliate and I had benefits and all this other stuff. I was like, I quit my job. They were like, uh-huh (affirmative). I was like, for a movie and I have no benefits and all this. They were like, okay, okay. All right, well, good luck with that. I will say I was somewhat clueless as to how the whole freelance world worked because for the next three years, I worked nonstop and I was never without a job. I was without benefits. I was without all sorts of stuff, but I was never without a job. And then when I finally didn't have a job and things had slowed down in Atlanta, I had at least saved some money, so I was doing okay. It was an interesting process. Atlanta was a great place for me to start, because cost of living was low.
Anya Adams (16:34):
Yeah. I think that's really a good thing to let young people know too is you don't have to start your career in New York or LA or now even Atlanta or Vancouver, it can be in your hometown. You can get some really good experience so that when you head into the mouth of the wolf, you have a little wind at your sails.
Heidi McGowen (16:53):
So then cut to four years later or whatever, and I decided to move to LA. I was already in the Directors Guild, so I wasn't fighting that battle. I was fighting the battle of getting on the qualifications list, but I at least was in the DGA. There was things that helped and were to my benefit.
Anya Adams (17:14):
You moved through PA, you were office PA, and then you were on set and you were an assistant director and then you spent a good amount of time as a production manager. I think you're one of two black women I know that are production managers and that's such a unique and specific position. Can you talk a little bit about that job and you know what it entails?
Heidi McGowen (17:36):
It's an interesting job because I personally think it's a lot more interesting than it ever gets credit for, because I think people think that all I do is count. You're just a bean counter and an extension of accounting and it's like, no, it's not that at all. I got my first opportunity to work as a production manager on Body of Proof. Jim Cleaver, what had happened in that situation was I had said to him, because we had worked together on Aaron's spelling show called Savannah in Atlanta. There was this black woman who was an assistant UPM and her name was Pam though. I don't remember her last name, but she was lovely. I would watch Pam, and I was like, that looks like a cool job because we had actors who were traveling in and out and all this other stuff and she would help coordinate that and make sure they got settled because they were coming into Atlanta to shoot and she just did all this, what it looked like to me was all this personal attention coordinating kind of thing.
Heidi McGowen (18:50):
She would come on set and she would check with all the departments and make sure everything was running okay. All this stuff. And I was like, if there's ever a chance to do that job, that's what I want to do is what Pam's doing. She was also included in, you know how it is on set. There is a hierarchy and the creative decisions, often the logistical decisions are all made by a small group of people, and Pam was included in that group of people. I was like, and I be in that, because I've got some opinions. I got something to say about why are we doing this. I had mentioned that to Jim. You know Jim, and Jim has a memory like an elephant and he can remember all sorts of crazy stuff that nobody else remembers.
Heidi McGowen (19:49):
This is now cut to 10 years later, and Jim calls me up and is like, I'm working on this show. I'm going to be the UPM and line producer, but I will need an assistant UPM, and this will be a good opportunity for you to learn the job. So I was like, okay, I'd be interested in that. At that point, I hadn't worked in a significant amount of time, because I had decided I was frustrated after being a second for so long, and I decided I was going to work in independent films as an independent film producer, not knowing that you have to be a rich heiress to actually do that job and have no experience. I did not know that. So, I was slowly going broke while working in as a independent film consultant.
Heidi McGowen (20:46):
So, anyway, I had gone on a couple of job interviews and they were all for AD work, and then he was like, this assistant UPM thing. So, I was like, okay. I went in and I met with a couple executives at ABC who were all really nice and all of that, but what I didn't understand is that they had their own agenda because they were really aware of the fact that we don't have any black people who are in the ranks who we need. I went, like I said, through the interview process all the way up to the vice president of production. What they had decided without me being part of the conversation is they were like, let's just hire her as the UPM, and we will do whatever we can to support her in that because we need to have our own people.
Heidi McGowen (21:44):
That's what happened. Jim and I had a conversation about it and he was like, look, you already know how the set works and you know how scheduling works and you know what the office stuff is. He goes, the hardest part of this is going to be learning about how accounting works, and he was right. Jim is a task master.
Heidi McGowen (22:05):
I learned about budgeting and if I didn't under stand something, he would send me back to the lead accountant who had the patience of, I don't know what, because she should be sainted, Janet Letham, because she would walk me through the budget line by line. Those budgets are 70 pages and we would go through it and she would explain to me why this part is this, and if I wasn't going to use this money, then where was I going to use it somewhere else? If I wanted to say yes to somebody about something and all of that, and it was the hardest part and for the first season that I worked on that show, it was really, really, really, really difficult for me, and I thought all the time I was going to get fired.
Anya Adams (23:01):
But it sounds like you had a lot of support.
Heidi McGowen (23:03):
I did have a lot of support. The big thing that I always tell people is, they wanted me to succeed, so they helped me. That's not usually the case with people when they come in. When you're being hired on a job, you're just supposed to succeed. Period. The end. But when you are learning a new position, you have to have people who are in your corner. They want you to be successful, because you're going to make mistakes, and I made tons of mistakes. I remember one of the things I have to do is sign checks, and one time I had a to sign a payroll check and it was over a million dollars and I wouldn't sign it, and Jim was like, why aren't you going to sign it? Why won't you sign this? And I was like, because if I'm wrong, [inaudible 00:23:57].
Anya Adams (23:58):
It's scary.
Heidi McGowen (23:59):
[inaudible 00:23:59] money. I was terrified.
Anya Adams (24:06):
Hi, it's Anya, and you're listening to Sista Brunch. We'll be right back, and if you haven't already, follow us on Twitter, @sistabrunch, Instagram, @sisterbrunchpodcast, and Facebook at facebook.com/sistabrunch podcast. Leave us a comment, slide into our DMS and share your news with us. We want to celebrate your hard work with you. What you're saying is clarifying for me why a lot of accountants move into that position because it is such a very complex accounting side that you need to understand.
Heidi McGowen (24:41):
It's actually not that complex.
Anya Adams (24:43):
It isn't? Okay.
Heidi McGowen (24:43):
Look at that complex.
Anya Adams (24:47):
Interesting.
Heidi McGowen (24:47):
No matter what industry you work in, every industry has its own language, right? My sister is a engineer and I literally have gone to work with her and people are speaking English and I have no idea what they're talking about. No clue. There's words I've never heard of. They say stuff. I don't know what they're talking about, and it's the same kind of thing. I had to learn the language of what happens in accounting. I did not know the language, because a lot of people from accounting move into it, but then they have the problem of, they don't know the set.
Anya Adams (25:29):
They got to learn everything else. Right.
Heidi McGowen (25:32):
There's always somewhere, if it's a triangle or a pie is made of three pieces, you probably have two of the pieces. You don't have the third. So, whatever that is, you have to learn what that is, and that was the hardest part. I cannot tell you how many times I cried a lot at work.
Anya Adams (25:54):
I think we all do too, because we want to succeed. I think that's also the plight of a black woman who's like I can't come in here and fail. I want to talk to you a little bit about that. Being a black woman in this industry, especially in a position where you are usually the only one, do you have any words of wisdom for the young folk coming up who are going to be waiting through that in some form or another in Hollywood, because it is still fairly homogeneous, although we're trying to diversify. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Heidi McGowen (26:27):
I have a lot of thoughts on that because you have to kind of read the room and see what show you're on. So, on some shows it's been beneficial to keep a low profile, put my head down and just do the work. I will never forget when I was on Girlfriends, Mara used to drive in, I don't know if you know Mara Brock Akil, who is the creator of Girlfriends, is this gorgeous woman who was 22 when she created Girlfriends amazing, and she would come in and she had her Range Rover or whatever, and she would be blasting her music, Ludicrous or whatever, and I just remember asking her or saying to her one day, I heard you coming. She goes, you know. Need to let them know we're here.
Heidi McGowen (27:19):
And it made me laugh so hard, but it was this thing of like you don't need to not be seen. You don't need to be invisible. You need to be present. She was like, let them know you're here, and there are times when that has served me well, like on Blackish. I was definitely in the let them know you're here camp. As long as I was on Blackish, you would think that everybody on the Disney lot would know that's Heidi. No. I remember we had some kind of incident where we needed to have the security people come and I had requested security to come and I had requested to talk to them, and my agent happened to be visiting that day. My agent, by the way, who is a person of color, she's just not black, the security guy starts talking to her.
Anya Adams (28:26):
My goodness.
Heidi McGowen (28:26):
Instead of talking to me and she was like, I don't work on this show. She's the producer. She's on Blackish. You need to talk to her. It plays itself out in different ways, and I feel like it depends on what show you're on. On Silicon Valley, I didn't need to let anybody know I was there and I will tell you, because I was the only one there and I was the little raisin floating in the grits.
Anya Adams (28:57):
That's going to be the quote for this episode. Heidi McGowen, the raisin floating in the grits.
Heidi McGowen (29:10):
Jim and I were sitting next to each other at a table read in Silicon Valley and he turns to me and he goes, my God, you're the only person of color here. It's a room filled with like 60 people, and I was like, yeah, I know. Dude, this is what it's like at times.
Anya Adams (29:33):
Yeah. It's true. Yeah. There are times when you're surrounded by your peeps and there are times when you're not and just figuring out how to navigate those different environments.
Heidi McGowen (29:44):
And there are times when you're not and you need to let them know you're here, and then there's times when you're just trying to hang on for dear life. I would say that it has changed over the years, in the last couple of years and I don't feel so concerned about it, but I will say that also as I became more confident in my job and in my own abilities, I became less concerned about what they thought, and I became much more like, let them know that you're here. So, I began to appreciate what Mara had said at that young age in different ways.
Anya Adams (30:31):
One of the things we like to talk about if you're comfortable with and you don't have to, if you don't want to, but one of the things we like to brass tax on this show is talking about salary range for that type of job. A UPM, there's a base rate that you're paid. Are you comfortable talking about what that is? Every year, do you get more money? Do you have to negotiate? Is it something that stays flat?
Heidi McGowen (30:56):
Yeah, I can talk about it. I will say I can talk about it in vagaries only in a sense of, because it's easy enough to look up. The UPM scale rate is what you start out at, and I feel like it's $500 or $600 more than what the first AD makes, and then there is this ridiculous expectation that you will not put in for additional days and you will not do all these things. At least that's how I came up, and then I ended up on other shows where they were like, no, you worked on Saturday. Write that in. I was like, damn straight. But then part of the thing that I always tell people, because on Blackish, somebody said to me, there's 17 producers on Blackish. I was like, no, there are 17 people who are being paid additional money to whatever it is that their actual job is.
Anya Adams (31:59):
Right.
Heidi McGowen (31:59):
And the way that they can do that, the way that they can pay those writers more is by giving them a producer credit, because it is not subjected to scale and all of that. It's funny because on Insecure, I got a producer credit and it was literally a matter of a request from my agent to HBO and to Jim, and it was no big deal. On Blackish, it was like a wrestling match from hell and it was negotiations. Even though I had been on the show since the pilot, it was tough. It was a big deal.
Anya Adams (32:42):
Were you trying to negotiate that producer deal to get more money just to elevate your base rate or just to have the credit?
Heidi McGowen (32:50):
I felt like both. I wanted the credit and especially every night shoot, every whatever you'd look around, and the only person with producing credit would be me there.
Anya Adams (33:02):
Heidi.
Heidi McGowen (33:02):
Because nobody else was there. They would all go home and not work. They're like, we're going to shoot till midnight. I got a dinner at seven and I've got to go. Yeah. It was a lot of that, and I just was like, this doesn't make any sense to me. This is not my first job. This is not the only UPM job I have. This is not a new credit. What are we doing? So, you all need to figure this out.
Anya Adams (33:33):
You just were saying too, about how, as you got more confident in your job, it sounds like you were more confident and like asking for what you're worth, which I think is something as just women, but black women in general, it's very hard to do.
Heidi McGowen (33:48):
Yeah, and it is something that people try to talk you out of all the time. When you are talking about your own value and your own worth and what you contribute and what you bring to the table and they will either try to diminish that. That's what's expected and that's what you're supposed to. No. That is not what is expected. I am above and beyond, and I'm very clear about that now, but it took a while and there was definitely a couple times when I was like, I'm going to get fired, and you suck it up and it's like, well, but if I get fired because I'm speaking up for myself, then that's what I'll get fired for. In defense of myself, yes. I will get fired for that.
Anya Adams (34:46):
I could talk to you for hours about this because you have such a wealth of knowledge. I want to, before we wrap up just for our listeners, can they follow you on anything? Are you doing any projects that they should be looking out for? Let us know a little bit about Heidi McGowen.
Heidi McGowen (35:01):
I would say that they should stay tuned. Hopefully there will be some stuff that is happening either on the big screen or the small screen. I don't know yet. I am in this transitional period, which I am enjoying tremendously, but in the meantime they can watch the final season of Blackish and then they can also watch us in reruns and you can watch the reruns of Girlfriends, which I just started watching.
Anya Adams (35:31):
They're great. Well, thank you so much, Heidi, for coming on the show and just sharing your life and your journey.
Heidi McGowen (35:39):
My pleasure.
Anya Adams (35:48):
Thank you all so much for listening to Sista Brunch with me, on Anya Adams. That was our conversation with Heidi McGowen. Visit sisterbrunch.com to find out more about her and how to support her in her upcoming projects. Remember, guys, Fanshen will be back soon, but in the meantime, remember to follow us on Instagram @sistabrunchpodcast. We're also on Twitter @sistabrunch and on Facebook at facebook.com/sistabrunchpodcast. Got questions for ask Sista Brunch segment? Visit sistabrunch.com to fill our questions form, and we might just read and answer yours on air. Also, sign up for our monthly newsletter to get job tips, viewing recommendations, and more. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review our show on iTunes. Your support is really important. Our producer is Sonata Lee Narcisse. Our show per producer is Brittany Turner. Our executive producer is Christabel Nsiah-Buadi. We acknowledge that the land we record our podcast on is the original land of the Tonga people for those of us in Los Angeles. Thanks to you guys again for listening. Can't wait to see you next time. Take care.