Davina Hefflin: Uplifting Diverse Voices
Episode Description:
Davina Hefflin, TV literary manager at Verve Agency, focuses her career on identifying and empowering a diverse range of voices —including those of the LGBTQ+ community. In this episode, she talks to Anya and Fanshen about working her way up from the mailroom, the importance of mentorship, and what she sees as her mission as an agent.
TRANSCRIPT:
Anya Adams (00:12):
Welcome back to Sista Brunch with me, Anya Adams.
Fanshen Cox (00:15):
And me, Fanshen Cox. Wait, can we just say we're back together and that's kind of exciting?
Anya Adams (00:19):
What's up?
Fanshen Cox (00:19):
We didn't get to do a whole... Well, I think we did majority of our episodes together this season, but it's nice to be back with you, Anya.
Anya Adams (00:25):
It's really nice to be back together and with our amazing guest.
Fanshen Cox (00:29):
I know.
Anya Adams (00:30):
Just a little bit about Sista Brunch, it's a podcast about Black women and non-binary folks striving and thriving in media entertainment and the arts, and we can't wait to share more stories with you over the next few weeks.
Fanshen Cox (00:41):
And today's fabulous guest is Davina Hefflin. Davina's a TV lit manager at Verve Agency. She started out as an assistant at Gersh, which is also an agency here in Hollywood, if you aren't aware, and you should be because you should get to know all these agencies.
Fanshen Cox (00:59):
So she was an assistant there and then she moved up the ranks of the TV literary department. She is focused on identifying and empowering a diverse range of voices. We love that, including those of the LGBTQ+ community, and has her masters in screenwriting from Chapman University and a BA in English and creative writing from Saint Vincent College.
Davina Hefflin (01:22):
Yes.
Anya Adams (01:23):
Okay.
Fanshen Cox (01:23):
Yeah.
Anya Adams (01:26):
Snaps, snaps. I wonder if we passed each other in the hallways of Gersh? Because that's my agency.
Davina Hefflin (01:32):
I know, I know. I love them like family. I miss them dearly, but yes they are. We probably did at some point. I was probably just a scared little intern walking through and then a scared little assistant running through, too, so yeah. But thank you, both, for having me. I'm so excited to be here today.
Anya Adams (01:51):
We're so excited to talk to you. Yes.
Fanshen Cox (01:55):
Because I actually-
Anya Adams (01:55):
Bring us into your world.
Fanshen Cox (01:56):
Yeah. I think you might be our first guest that has gone a little bit, if this is okay to say, a bit of a traditional route in the sense of people think like, "Oh, you start in the mail room at an agency," which you didn't start in the mail room. But can you take us back, however far back you want to go, and talk to us about how you got to where you are now?
Davina Hefflin (02:16):
Definitely, definitely. So from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, born and raised.
Anya Adams (02:21):
Wow, okay.
Davina Hefflin (02:22):
We're one-two in the house. But yeah, so I have always been a writer since I was a kid. Very early on, I figured out that English was my easiest subject. I just understood words a bit better than math and science. So being a good mother, my mom just shepherded me in that direction as much as she could. So I grew up with this love of writing, and eventually, I discovered like, "Oh, you can get paid for this," and then I discovered the industry of filmmaking, and I was like, "Oh, people write these movies, duh. Okay." So I graduate, I move out to LA, graduated from Chapman, but I had this innate fear of graduating without a job. I was very, very terrified of that. So I put two and two together that if I understood the business of Hollywood, then I can always guarantee myself a job because I would know how the engine works.
Davina Hefflin (03:20):
I had a mentor at the time who told me like, "Oh, okay, you need to get in at an agency because that's where you see the inner workings of the industry." I came in as a babe. I knew absolutely nothing. I didn't recognize names, I didn't understand networking. I came in with a huge, huge learning curve. So I figured, "Why not? I can learn everything I need to learn, I got a guaranteed paycheck coming every two weeks, and I can be at a place that can elevate me as well. I can use this as a stepping stone." So yes, the traditional path was definitely more for me, just because it was a little more structured for me, and it was like agencies are meant to be learning facilities, so I was able to, in essence, continue my education beyond my actual education, which was a plus for me. So I got in, I started interning at Gersh, started building my skills up, graduated, started in the mail room, was in the mail room quite a bit.
Fanshen Cox (04:23):
Okay. Oh, you really did come through the mail room.
Davina Hefflin (04:25):
I did.
Fanshen Cox (04:25):
All right. I love having a real life person that had this experience, and a Black person at that. It's good to hear. Okay.
Davina Hefflin (04:34):
Yes. It was very, very different. I delivered mail for a living. That's what I did. And I was met with that reality a lot, but I did a full six months in the mail room before I got snatched and I started on Sean Barclay's desk in the TV lit department.
Fanshen Cox (04:54):
Nice.
Anya Adams (04:54):
Let me ask this, delivering mail, does it help you with the names and understanding who people are and where they are? I mean, is there merit to that?
Davina Hefflin (05:02):
Oh, definitely. So Gersh is pretty solid-sized agency, so there's a lot of people to know, and then beyond that, there's all the people they work with to start knowing as well. So that was really the fundamental step of like this is how you learn people and remember people, faces to names. It's a very real skillset to have because you'll be on the street, you'll see somebody that you actually email with every single day, and you want to be able to recognize their name, recognize their face.
Davina Hefflin (05:35):
So it was a fundamental thing. It's taking it back to basics, right? Like taking it back, dialing it down, and truly starting from a ground zero place, which was, again, which was brilliant for me, being somebody who did not know anything. So I didn't have the skillset to remember a name the first time I've met them. I didn't have any of those skillsets at all. This was a crash course in that you had to deliver that mail on time every 30 minutes, you had to know exactly where to go to, you had to remember names as you're walking throughout the hallways, all of those things. So yeah, fundamentals all the way.
Fanshen Cox (06:15):
Has it changed since? Because in my mind, I'm thinking physical mail because that's what it always has been, but you mentioned email, and I'm presuming that is there a change there in terms of digital mail, and did that change your job, or is it still physically like hand-delivering letters?
Davina Hefflin (06:33):
It's definitely still hand-delivering letters on top of... So mail room trainees, they get called up, like their training period is being able to cover a desk, and it's pretty much when you get to be the acting assistant for the day, and that's whenever you get into communicating with people over emails, talking to people, scheduling meetings, tracking money, doing all of these heavier responsibility tasks. It's a training process and it's a program all the way.
Anya Adams (07:03):
So you got snatched up by Sean because you had done some time at his desk and he liked you? That's kind of how you start to find your way? Is that...
Davina Hefflin (07:12):
Yeah. So I was originally supposed to be on the feature side of things, just because I thought I understood the process a little more. Then I transitioned down to film financing because, again, my mind thinking, "If you understand the system and the model, you can manipulate it and you can start to change it." And I was this close to locking in a desk in film financing, but Sean's current assistant got sick. He caught mono for two weeks, and I got pulled over to the desk. And in the two weeks, Sean and I just immediately kind of clicked, and you meet people like that in the industry, where you're just like, "Man, did I just meet my new best friend? Do you understand me completely? Yes? Is this a cool thing?" And I saw in him the things that, like he was about the changes I wanted to see.
Davina Hefflin (08:03):
This was around the time when everyone was screaming like, "We want women and diversity. We want women and diversity." And then everything would still be whitewashed. The rooms would still be all white, the director slate would be all white, the producers would be all white, the writers would be all white. It's just completely whitewashed. And I was verbal about that, and he was the first person that didn't shy away from that conversation but actually took it head-on and started showing me ways that you could be an influence in the position to help bring about better change, down to who you represent, the content they want to create, protecting them all the way through their career, and really then having a say in the projects that get put on display and actually make it to production, right? Like it covers the whole process. So at first, I told Sean, "I'm not an agent. I'm a writer. Don't try-"
Fanshen Cox (08:58):
Just so you know.
Davina Hefflin (08:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Anya Adams (08:58):
"Don't try it."
Davina Hefflin (09:01):
"Don't try it. This is no conversion over here. I'm here to get my experience and [crosstalk 00:09:10]." And he was fine with it. He let me go through my process. But we would be not arguing, but we would have conversations about my frustrations in the industry on a weekly basis. I just wasn't understanding what the issue was. So after thinking on it, talking on it, eventually, I kind of realize that like, "Oh, the people protecting the artists have influence, just as artists have influence." I started looking around and I was like, "There's no one like me here," and maybe that's a part of the problem, right? Like, "Maybe if there were more people like me at this stage and really conscientious about the process all the way through, maybe that's a missing link there." So I saw a need and I had a decision to make, and he challenged me. He's like, "You know, you can go after this, you can become this, you can do this for real, and you can make a positive impact," right? Like that's why we're in this industry. We want to make a positive impact through our work.
Davina Hefflin (10:21):
So I decided. I said, "You know what? It is better to help the many and to widen the gate for the many than it is to just struggle and go after my own individual selfish ideas." So I decided to make a change, and I pursued a representation, and I wanted to be... Coming from the writing side, people always told me like, "You think like a manager and you operate like a manager." But I specifically wanted to be an agent because I did not see many Black agents at all. And agents have a bit of power. Agents are deciding who gets put up for things. We're the ones talking to the people that make the decisions on things, we're the one wining and dining them, we're the one convincing them. They always say, "Nobody knows what they really want." Well, it's the agent's job to tell them what they want, right? Like it's our job to get the people in the room that have that vision that is what they need. So yeah, decided to shift, and I haven't looked back.
Anya Adams (11:29):
This is Sista Brunch with Fanshen Cox and Anya Adams. Stay tuned for more of our conversation with our incredible guest, TV lit agent, Davina Hefflin.
Anya Adams (11:55):
Hey, we're back. Check out more of our conversation with Davina Hefflin.
Fanshen Cox (11:58):
What you're saying about agents is everything I wish that the agents that sometimes I got to deal with understood about what they're doing. And so not all agents do, but also, I'm so glad to know that you are there as a role model for this is what agents are there to do and not just to gain their own power and access, but to do that for other people. I'm sorry. I'm very inspired and glad to know you're out there. And we will be talking after this because, yeah. Also, I'll just say, and you're probably going to get to this, it does not mean in any way that you have to give up your career as a writer. Everything you're doing right now feeds you and your strengths as a writer, and when you're ready and you're making all these incredible relationships, we want to read your stuff. Anyway.
Davina Hefflin (12:56):
Yeah.
Anya Adams (12:56):
Can you talk a little bit about like in your role as an agent, you just said like you know what's right. Is that because you, as an agent, you're representing people and then you get all of these different shows or these different things that are coming through your past? You really have to be in tune with the people you're representing so that you know, "This is going to resonate with my clients." Can you talk a little bit about that?
Davina Hefflin (13:18):
Oh, definitely. So agents are required to know everything, quite literally.
Fanshen Cox (13:25):
The librarian. You're so true. Right.
Davina Hefflin (13:29):
Exactly. Agents, because we're the epicenter, that means every single piece of information passes the agency, and we're the ones that then move it, push it, and further it along. So it's about balancing where the marketplace is at, reading every single script that the network actually puts forward into production, understanding what their slate is, knowing what their goals and motives are, and balancing with that what the desires of the client is and what the stories they want to tell are, and finding that medium of where they line up. Because a lot of times, the networks just know the broad strokes, what's going to fill the hole that we currently have in our slate, but it's the creative that comes in with the specific vision of, "This is the story that deserves to be told and must be told."
Davina Hefflin (14:19):
And it's the passion that pushes the collaboration forward, right? It's two people coming together saying like, "Okay, yeah. This works," and then we add to the team some more, we add to the team some more. Next thing you know, you have a full production going, everybody's getting paid, and you get a beautiful piece of art in the end. But it's definitely a balancing act, but the only way to balance it is to know the information, to know what the data boils down to, and being able to articulate that to the client. Because I'm sure you guys know, ideas come so much, a dime a dozen. There's so many original ideas, IP. There are so many stories that can be told. It's the agent's job to know the heartbeat of what should be told, of what's ready to be told, because we digest everything, we have a better understanding of what the audience is feeding off of, and really getting to the heart of that. So I take it very seriously. I think it's an important job.
Fanshen Cox (15:20):
And you have to really be forward-thinking in that, too. I think a lot of agents, especially older agents, are kind of like, "Oh, well..." For example, we had sci-fi project and it was like, "Oh, we already have enough Black people in sci-fi," and I'm like, "How are you saying that when we haven't even begun to tap Black folks in sci-fi?" Right? And so you not only have to know everything that's happening now, but you also have to kind of be able to prophesize on where we're going to go and be part of pushing us in that direction, too, by putting forward your clients that are thinking in that way.
Davina Hefflin (15:58):
Yes, yes. And the only way to do that is to know your client intimately, right? So in an industry that's based on relationships, I think the most important relationship is the one between client and agent or client and management, because it's the rep's job to know you so intimately well and to know your creative process so well that we can be additive to that conversation and identifying what's ready, what's right, what's hot, and what's needed.
Fanshen Cox (16:28):
So Davina, you mentioned in the opening a mentor, just as you were come out of college, who helped kind of steer you in the right direction. Do you want to talk a little bit more about who that mentor was and what they said to you or how they guided you?
Davina Hefflin (16:42):
Yes, definitely. So I had two main mentors in college, and that was Harry [Heflin 00:16:49], the late Harry Heflin. RIP to him. And then that was Barry Blaustein. He was my writing mentor. And Harry was the one that really sat me down and was like, "Understand the business," right? "Understand how this works." And then it was Barry that really helped me find my own writing process, and it blew my mind. Like once your process clicks, I think a little like a switch goes off inside of every person, and you're just like, "Oh, I get this. I get this and I'm striding." And he's the one that really walked me through being there, while also teaching me how to communicate creatively, how to give notes properly. There's a system and a process for it, and it's a muscle that is meant to be practiced and flexed on how you communicate during creative discussions, brainstorming sessions, and all of that.
Davina Hefflin (17:41):
So I think in tandem, it raised me up as a writer, and it also raised me up as a business-minded person as well. And in the mix, I mean, I've always relied on mentors. My entire career, I've had very specific mentors for very specific periods of my life that lead me into my next section. On one hand, you have to be, right? Like there's a very distinct difference between like old Hollywood and us new generation coming up and taking over. The reality is that the older generation-
Fanshen Cox (18:15):
Anya, I don't know which one we are. I think she might be talking about us in the old category.
Davina Hefflin (18:20):
No.
Fanshen Cox (18:23):
I'm joking. The mentality-
Anya Adams (18:25):
Are you calling me old, Fanshen?
Fanshen Cox (18:28):
No, no. It's the mentality you're talking about, right, Davina? Not necessarily the age? No, I'm sorry.
Davina Hefflin (18:31):
Not at all. Not the age at all, no. In regards to age, you're only talking about these old white males that have had power in the industry for way too long, should have retired probably 15 years ago. But at the same time, they know a lot and they know a lot of people, and you'd be a fool not to take that information and use it to propel you forward. So I've always relied on mentors.
Anya Adams (19:04):
Can you talk a little bit about how you get your mentors? I think it's really helpful for our audience to hear that, how you gain them, how you keep them, how you engage them.
Davina Hefflin (19:13):
Oh, definitely. So I base everything relationally. So it has to be, like with Sean and I, we instantly connected just as human beings, and then I discovered what I can learn from him. And as I'm discovering that, I'm also seeing what they're teaching methods are, because different mentors will lead you in different ways, and it's on you to know what you respond well to and what you don't respond well to.
Davina Hefflin (19:40):
For example, Barry Blaustein, he's not an easy mentor, right? He's going to push you to your limits, and he's going to expect the best out of you because that's what he sees out of you. I responded well to that. I don't need somebody to hold my hand and tell me, "It's going to be okay, sweetie." I need somebody to tell me what the heck I'm doing wrong and tell me how to fix it so that I can move forward. So that style of mentorship helped me, and I was able to identify like, "Okay, I respond well to to-the-point people, people that are not going to shy away from what I need to hear but tell me straight up what I need to hear." It's different for every people. Different strokes for different folks. But that's what I do. I lean in on the relationship. So it starts off with just pure human connection, and as that develops, I just start to learn exactly what their methods are and whether or not that's good for me.
Fanshen Cox (20:38):
Hey, it's Fanshen, and you're listening to Sista Brunch. We'll be right back. And if you haven't done this already, follow us on Twitter, @SistaBrunch, Instagram, @sistabrunchpodcast, Facebook, if you're still over there, that's facebook.com/sistabrunchpodcast. Go ahead and leave us a comment or something in our DMs, share your news with us, because then, we can celebrate you.
Fanshen Cox (21:05):
Davina, we've talked about you having a focus, especially on uplifting LGBTQ+ community, and I think we definitely haven't talked enough about that in the Black community in entertainment, so can you talk about how you keep your focus in that direction, how you uplift people?
Davina Hefflin (21:22):
Definitely. So I think the easiest way is just who I represent, the voices that I'm actually representing. I think that that's where it starts. It starts at protecting and building a strategy for the people that create these ideas authentically. So it's about finding those talents and being able to kind of pull them into the community and build them up within it. But apart from that, also, it's just identifying. Because I myself am gay, because I'm a lesbian, I think that I understand our experiences on a more intimate level, and I think that that translates well whenever we're talking about material that any given client is building at that time.
Davina Hefflin (22:07):
I think that it's especially important because we get so taken advantage of in the industry. We get rewritten, we get written out of things, we get not hired instead of, we get recasted all of the time. That's not right. So I think that, on one hand, by representing the voices, myself being in this community, and then thirdly, I think that it's on me to be able to properly articulate this on the other side, right? We know there's a lot of bad scripts out there.
Fanshen Cox (22:43):
I got to just say that, too. Just because you're a Black woman or gay and Black, don't mean you wrote a good script. Yes.
Davina Hefflin (22:55):
There's a lot of material out there, and not every time the right project gets chosen to make it into production, right? Like that still isn't enough. We want to see it made. That's the goal. It's on us to be able to articulate properly on the other side, are the network and the studio authentically pursuing this project, how are they building it, what team are they using around it. All of those things matter, and those conversations start the second the IP is purchased, right? Like before the script is even written, who's the first voice that is going to influence this story, and are they the right person to tell this story? Is it theirs to tell? Right? All of those things, holding that accountability on the other side, I think, is just as important as representing people from our community.
Fanshen Cox (23:45):
What is it like for you? And do you have support, and are there times when you're uncomfortable being out and expressing your identity and all that you are?
Davina Hefflin (23:56):
Yeah. Never uncomfortable being who I am in a room, because I think that we, thankfully, live in an era where, especially if you're in LA, you live in a city where you feel a lot safer being yourself. The frustration comes with there not being a lot of people like me in these spaces. I don't know. At the same time that I didn't know a lot of Black agents coming up, I can't that I know a lot of gay agents coming up, either. So it's a little isolating at times, and the frustration, I think, comes when the system... I'm still a victim of the system as well. So there's tokenship that happens. There is kind of a, "Know your place," or, "Just be seen, not heard," experiences that happen.
Davina Hefflin (24:48):
For that, honestly, I just have to have a no-bullshit rule of just like, "You're not going to treat me like this. You're going to respect me as I deserve to be respected," and requiring that same amount of love and affection for everyone that I work with as well, like just having a standard and requiring people to meet the standard instead of belittling ourselves and diminishing who we are for the sake of the power that be in the room. I love it. I love the fact that I get to be out. I hope that in my proudness, that I'm out as obviously Black, because you can tell, but gay too, because you can tell as well. But I'm proud to be like that because when I was a kid, we couldn't be. We had to be in the closet. We had to hide ourselves. So now that I'm out, I'm out, I'm proud, and I love it.
Anya Adams (25:44):
I mean, you kind of touched on it a little bit, but roadblocks just in this industry and how you come up against them, it sounds like you really approach them with a very honest, truthful, and no-bullshit kind of policy. But do you want to share a little bit with the listeners about like how to maneuver in spaces that are tough and staying at... Like is there an example you might be able to use on how to stay authentic? Because I think it is really difficult when you are one of one in a group of homogeneous group of people, which I find myself in those rooms a lot. And you want to navigate the space and be true to yourself, but also, like you were saying before, not diminish who you are and hold your head high when you leave the room.
Davina Hefflin (26:31):
Yeah, definitely. For me, I guess, not that it's a specific example, but for me, I lean on the fact that everyone is scared shitless of being canceled, and whatever they do behind closed doors, they don't want it to be shown out to the public. And I think that even though instances happen because some people are idiots and they do horrible things, yeah, I think that the system is afraid of instances like that happening. So because of that, I like to take advantage of that and get ahead of it instead of shy back from it. So what that looks like is, the second I realize that I'm being used as a token, I'm not just going to...
Davina Hefflin (27:22):
For example, if I were to be pulled into a signing meeting to sign a Black person because I'm Black, right? As soon as I see that happening, I'm pulling myself out of a meeting, I'm talking to whoever it is that is above me and that why it's not okay for that to happen. And yeah, at the end of the day, you're going to steer them in the right direction and say, "This is how it should be. Is there real connectivity to the material? What kind of relationships are we building? What's the vision? What's the strategy?" The things that actually matter, right? Those parts of things, getting back on track with that. So I tend to be more straightforward with it instead of shying back from that conversation, because the second it is said, everyone goes on high alert.
Fanshen Cox (28:10):
We're finally there, and it is a nice place to be, where at the very least, they listen. A lot of times, they listen because they're like, "We might get canceled," and fine, if that's why you go and listen, that's fine. But we are finally in a place where saying something matters, and so we have to say something, we really do. They're lucky. They're so lucky.
Davina Hefflin (28:31):
They shy away from me.
Fanshen Cox (28:33):
Yeah.
Anya Adams (28:34):
It is the responsibility you carry, being one of the only in that space, is that we also become teachers, even though it's fucking tiring and we don't want to do it all the time. But it becomes a part of our responsibility as we kind of break ground through these spaces for each other. Yeah.
Davina Hefflin (28:53):
Oh, yeah. And we only get stronger, right? The more of us there are, the bigger we get and the stronger we get, and we already move with one voice and one mind, so we're only going to get stronger in our voice, in our actions, and in our minds. So big shoes to fill, for sure. It's a big responsibility, but I think that everyone collectively holds that weight, at least that's what I see in the gay community in Hollywood, that everyone carries that weight together. Therefore, it's not as heavy.
Fanshen Cox (29:30):
Davina, what is your dream project? And that can be certainly you as an agent, but more importantly, let's put it out there, and you as a writer.
Anya Adams (29:39):
As a writer.
Fanshen Cox (29:42):
What is your dream project?
Davina Hefflin (29:43):
My dream project, so I err on the side of genre in drama. I got a soft spot for those. I always say I like the dark, sick, and twisted, so I can get pretty dark, sick, and twisted [crosstalk 00:29:56].
Fanshen Cox (29:56):
I'm like, "You're speaking Anya's language over here. Okay."
Anya Adams (29:57):
Let's do it. I love it. More.
Davina Hefflin (30:01):
That's where I lean towards. I'm also in love with hybrids, genre blends. I love, like with Lovecraft Country, how we got sci-fi, horror, romance, drama, like they hit us with everything. I just think that the average viewer is actually so sophisticated in how we view things, from how we take in information at such a high rate whenever we're viewing a picture or a moving image, and I think that genre blends really test the audience, like, "Can you keep up as we take you through different tones and worlds?" I just love that stuff. So my dream project would definitely be something in that world. I don't know what it looks like, I don't know what that world is, but something there.
Fanshen Cox (30:51):
Yeah. Davina, this has been amazing. You're our first agent on the show in three seasons, and I know that this is going to be so inspiring for our listeners who are emerging and pushing their way in to know that there are agents like you here. Certainly inspiring for me in development, knowing that this is what I can demand from the agents I work with. This has been so great. Thank you so much.
Anya Adams (31:22):
It went so fast. I feel like it went so fast.
Davina Hefflin (31:27):
No, seriously. Thank you, both, for having me. I hope that people can just see that there's a new generation coming up, we're taking over, and we're making changes for the better. So thank you, both. I'm forever grateful to be here.
Anya Adams (31:41):
Thank you for listening to Sista Brunch with me, Anya Adams, and Fanshen Cox. That was our conversation with Davina Hefflin. Visit sistabrunch.com to find out more about them and how to support them in their upcoming projects.
Fanshen Cox (32:14):
Follow us on Instagram, @sistabrunchpodcast. We're also on Twitter, @SistaBrunch. We're on Facebook at facebook.com/sistabrunchpodcast. Have you got a question, maybe, for one of our guests? Then you can join our Ask Sista Brunch segment. Go to sistabrunch.com, fill out the question form, and we might just read and answer your question on the air. Also, sign up for our monthly newsletter. You can get job tips, you can get viewing recommendations, and a whole lot more. And also, don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review our show on iTunes. Your support helps us so much, and it helps to spread the word about our podcast.
Anya Adams (32:57):
Our senior producer is Sonata Lee Narcisse, our show producer is Brittany Turner, our executive producer is Christabel Nsiah-Buadi. We'd like to acknowledge that the land we record our podcast on is the original land of the Tongva people, for those of us in Los Angeles. Can't wait to see you next time. Take care, everyone.