Darrien Michele Gipson: Advocating for Independent Filmmakers
Episode Description:
Darrien Michele Gipson is the Executive Director of SAGindie, an educational organization for independent filmmakers. Since becoming SAGindie’s Executive Director in 2006, Darrien has expanded the organization to reach more festivals and help even more creators on all platforms to bring their projects to fruition. In this episode, she talks to Fanshen about how she created her own career path and her work educating and advocating for independent filmmakers.
TRANSCRIPT:
Fanshen Cox (00:12):
Welcome back to Sista Brunch with me Fanshen Cox. Sista Brunch is a podcast about black women and non-binary folks striving and thriving in media, entertainment, and the arts. We cannot wait to share all of these stories with you over the next few weeks. Our dear co-host Anya, I know y'all are missing us because we have not been together for a lot of these episodes this season, but she is out being a badass director. We can't wait to share some of the projects that she's working on currently, but she will be back. We will be back together very, very soon.
Fanshen Cox (00:45):
We appreciate all your loving and well wishes to both of us. Today's guest is Darrien Gipson. Darrien Michelle Gipson is the executive director of SAGindie. An educational organization for independent filmmakers. She was the vice president of Development for DEF Pictures before joining SAGindie in 2002 as festival coordinator. Darrien is a graduate of UCLA where she received her BA in English, literature and USC, where she earned an MFA from the Peter Stark producers program.
Fanshen Cox (01:19):
Since becoming SAGindie's executive director in 2006, Darrien has expanded the organization to reach more festivals and help even more creators on all platforms to bring their projects to fruition. She continues to travel around the world, speaking on panels, mentoring writers, and film. And trust me, the homegirl is always traveling. I'm surprised we even found her here in LA for this call. She mentors writers, and filmmakers, and champions diversity, equity, and inclusion in the entertainment industry. We are so glad to have you on Darrien Michelle Gipson.
Darrien Gipson (01:56):
Hello there. That was such a nice introduction. Thank you.
Fanshen Cox (01:59):
Yeah. We're thrilled. We've been talking about this since you and I were on a panel for the Pan African Film Festival, I think maybe a year or two ago. So, we've owed you this guest spot and we couldn't wait to have you on.
Darrien Gipson (02:11):
Yeah, I think I was interviewing you for that one.
Fanshen Cox (02:14):
That's right. Now, usually we start with asking the guests to share their trajectory of their career. And we will get there, but you have such an unusual name. I wanted to know if you want to talk a little bit about how you got this name?
Darrien Gipson (02:32):
Which name in particular. They're all crazy.
Fanshen Cox (02:35):
Definitely Darrien, because I would imagine that people might think that you yourself have misspelled your own name and they correct you and say isn't it Darren or things like that.
Darrien Gipson (02:44):
I get called a lot of things. Mostly Darren, Damien, Darius, sometimes Adriana. It runs the gamut. I get a lot of things that say Darren Michael. I'm like, "No, none of that." I get it, it's a predominantly male name, it's confusing. I wish I had like an amazing story about how it came about. But the fact is, I asked my mother so many times, "How did you come up with Darrien?" It's such an unusual name. And when she went into the hospital, I was not named Darrien. When she was giving birth to me, I think I was Kendall or something. She made the right decision. But when I came out, when they looked at me they were like, you know what? She's not a Kendall. She is a Darrien.
Fanshen Cox (03:38):
Wow.
Darrien Gipson (03:39):
So, I'm like, "That's amazing. What's a Darrien?" That seems very nice if I knew any idea. And she just kept saying, "oh, I don't remember." And I was like, "Wow, that's really disappointing." And then one day it hit her and she said, "You know at some point in time, I think in Gary Indiana, which is where my mom came from, there was a woman who moved into their town named Darrien." And I don't think they were particularly friends or anything, but she just never forgot the name. So, it resurrected when I came. I'm the youngest of three. But even when I was born, it was spelled differently.
Fanshen Cox (04:24):
Yeah. I love it.
Darrien Gipson (04:24):
So, It had a very French spelling. So, it had to it, D-A-R-R-I-E-N-N-E. And then at some point they were like, "She will never learn to spell her name." So they just cut off the end of it to make it easier. They didn't have a lot of hopes from my intelligence clearly.
Fanshen Cox (04:42):
Well, I love it because I feel like it speaks to... I have always thought of you and I've been following you for a very long time, you and your work. And always thinking about how do I collaborate with this woman? And I think of you as a nonconformist in the industry because you show up and are invited to the top level of every possible gathering and party, et cetera. But you are also always in the ranks of those who are doing indie film and you manage to constantly navigate those two worlds. I didn't know about your background in the producing program. So, I always wondered how did she end up doing this? Now, take us back to how you ended up being this badass nonconformist Darrien in the world of entertainment.
Darrien Gipson (05:36):
I think that's a pretty highfalutin description for me but I'll take it. Why not? It's a weird thing how I ended up here. I always say that I have a different origin story if you will, because I always wanted to be a producer. That's all I've ever wanted to do. And I knew I wanted to do it from the time I was 12. I didn't really know what was called, but I knew I wanted to work with scripts. I wanted to read them, I wanted to put movies together. And that was just it. I decided when I was 12 that's what I was going to do. I was going to go to UCLA. And eventually I was going to run a studio. That was my ambition.
Fanshen Cox (06:10):
Okay.
Darrien Gipson (06:11):
And most of it went according to plan.
Fanshen Cox (06:14):
Yes.
Darrien Gipson (06:15):
Went to UCLA. I graduated. I was working in television at a lot, not doing what I wanted, but had my toe in, was getting money, which was essential as a new graduate. But I wasn't really doing what I wanted to do. And my mother bless her heart, had a rule in our family, that everybody had to have a master's degree if they wanted to sit with the adults at thanksgiving.
Fanshen Cox (06:40):
I love it.
Darrien Gipson (06:41):
Yeah, and we were like, wait, my brother and my sister, it made more sense they're architecture and urban planning, but I was like, "I'm in film. Well, why do I have to do that?" And she was like, "Do you want to eat?" And I was like, "Okay." So, I went to Peter Stark and I enjoyed it quite a lot. I came out, was immediately hired as a creative exec.
Darrien Gipson (07:07):
Really loved the process of developing films. I mean, like I still to this day just enjoy the puzzle of it. I am a list person, who are the directors? Who are the actors? That is my thing. I love it. And so, I spent years doing that at a place where we weren't really making movies. We were planning a lot, we were developing a lot, we just couldn't quite pull the trigger. And that was frustrating. But I could live with that.
Darrien Gipson (07:34):
What I was having trouble with, there was a thing about development at that time where you actively wished other people's projects would bomb. There was this underbelly of sniping and blackening of the soul, and I wasn't enjoying that. So, I'll give you the medium to short story. I actually got sick. And as the company closed down, because they didn't make any movies, I became ill and I couldn't work for a year.
Fanshen Cox (08:05):
Oh wow.
Darrien Gipson (08:06):
And it took a while, but I finally had to have surgery, but I was fine and better. And when I realized that I was essentially going to live, because it was definitely questionable to me.
Fanshen Cox (08:18):
Wow.
Darrien Gipson (08:19):
I was like, okay, now I got to get a job. Let me get back in. Get a development job. And then I stopped and went, do I want to get that same job? And I just thought, a development person's whole job exists to say no. Your job is to take every project. And if there is a reason why you think you might not make it. If there's a kind of maybe not, then you say no.
Fanshen Cox (08:47):
Then you say no.
Darrien Gipson (08:47):
Right?
Fanshen Cox (08:48):
Yeah.
Darrien Gipson (08:48):
And then you operate in fear, because if you say yes and you thought might be a problem, was a problem, then that's your job. So, everybody says no. And I just said, "I don't want to go back and be a person who says no." I like these people, I like filmmakers, I like these creatives. I just want to be someone who says, yes.
Fanshen Cox (09:10):
You over here making me just question my whole life. But you don't. It's such a good point. Its such a good point. Wow.
Darrien Gipson (09:19):
It was a huge moment for me because it lifted my spirits. And there was a secondary part to that, which was while I was in development, you take all these meetings with people because you have to. They're always lunches and dinners. I was so tired of eating with people I didn't like. Who I would never sit with on any other thing, but I have to pretend to be nice.
Fanshen Cox (09:44):
Right.
Darrien Gipson (09:44):
And that's not in my nature to do that very easily. So, I made myself a promise that I would find a job where I was the person who said yes, and that I would never again eat with a human being who I did not actively want to eat with. It changed my life.
Fanshen Cox (10:01):
Wow.
Darrien Gipson (10:01):
It really did. It made me a happier, nicer person.
Fanshen Cox (10:05):
I love it.
Darrien Gipson (10:06):
Because I get to just say... People call me and say, "I'm having a problem. Can you help me?" And my answer is, "Yes. I'll find a way. If I am not the solution, I'll help you find it."
Fanshen Cox (10:19):
This is Sista Brunch with Fanshen Cox stay tuned for more of our conversation with our incredible guest, advocate and development executive Darrien Gipson. We're back check out more of our conversation with Darrien Michelle Gipson. I've always thought of you as working at SAGindie, but let's talk about how you have created this incredible kind of, I don't know if hybrid's the right word for yourself where you've worked with them for so long, but it's actually your own company. So, talk about how that happened.
Darrien Gipson (11:11):
SAGindie is my company, or actually SAGindie is a program. I own a corporation that runs it.
Fanshen Cox (11:17):
Got it.
Darrien Gipson (11:17):
Everybody assumes we're a department of SAG-AFTRA. We aren't. We are a separate entity, which is ironic because my offices are actually sublet out of SAG-AFTRA. So, my email says SAG-AFTRA, the phone number, I'm like, I know I'm not. You're just going to see it. So, it's a separate company, but our job is to understand SAG-AFTRA in general. And specifically their low budget contracts.
Fanshen Cox (11:49):
Yes.
Darrien Gipson (11:50):
And then we teach them to filmmakers because everybody on my staff has a film degree. So, we understand filmmaking.
Fanshen Cox (12:01):
Yes.
Darrien Gipson (12:02):
And we understand contracts. So, we can try to say, "Okay, we understand what you're trying to get to. Here's your path." Whereas SAG-AFTRA understands their membership and their contracts and what they want out of it. But they don't know anything about filmmaking. And filmmakers often can't read those contracts with all that legalese and discern what it is that it's trying to tell them.
Fanshen Cox (12:24):
Yes.
Darrien Gipson (12:24):
So, that's us. We just say, "Okay," what it means is don't do this. You can do that. Never do this. And it's like we just break it down.
Fanshen Cox (12:32):
I love it. Let's get into a little bit of specifics for the filmmakers, especially independent filmmakers that are listening to this. What is the budget that counts as a SAGindie film? Or low budget SAGindie?
Darrien Gipson (12:46):
Because they're SAG-AFTRA's contracts, they are still SAG-AFTRA. There's no SAGindie budget. We follow whatever SAG-AFTRA says as their levels. But the highest you can go and still be considered low budget is $2 million. However, if you claim diversity-
Fanshen Cox (13:06):
Yes.
Darrien Gipson (13:06):
... Which is how many people in your cast are of any of the protected groups. So, that's women. People always forget that. People who are 60 and older, people with alternate abilities, and people of color. And then 20% have to be people of color. And it doesn't have to be your leads, but it has to be people who speak and have time. If you do that, you can go up another million dollars up to $3 million.
Fanshen Cox (13:33):
I love it. Are you able to give us maybe a generalized example of case studies where either, we could do both if you have time and you want to. The most challenging situation you've been in with a filmmaker? And then the exemplar of how someone went about making a film?
Darrien Gipson (13:57):
The most difficult is almost every film maker I talk to.
Fanshen Cox (14:02):
Yes.
Darrien Gipson (14:03):
Because everything is the same and everything is different.
Fanshen Cox (14:05):
Right.
Darrien Gipson (14:08):
It's like, I want to make a film. Got it. Here are the components. It just is like, once you understand what people are trying to accomplish, you just break it down. I always say, if you are producer, you can produce anything. And then essentially I'm understanding what they're trying to accomplish and I'm just helping them find their way to it. So, it's still working that [inaudible 00:14:32] mind of mind, because I think producers are people who just are born that way. It's the way we see things. And you can either train it to do films, or you can train it to plan weddings, or whatever it is. So, my job is to lead people through. So, there are times where I get people who say, "I'm going to do this. It's a low budget film. Can I shoot half of it in Prague?| No.
Fanshen Cox (14:59):
But it's such a beautiful city.
Darrien Gipson (15:03):
But the low budgets are designed to be in the US. So, you can't shoot outside of the country with them-
Fanshen Cox (15:08):
Oh, okay.
Darrien Gipson (15:08):
... For the most part. Sometimes they bring people in and I try to help people who are from other countries come in and understand the process. But every situation is different and crazy, but they work. And they come out of it and films are made. So, which ones were easy? None of them are easy, but some of them are incredibly rewarding.
Fanshen Cox (15:31):
Yes.
Darrien Gipson (15:32):
And you just go okay. We made five films the first part of the pandemic in New York. When New York was the only thing still open we got five films into production and out without shutting down.
Fanshen Cox (15:46):
Yes.
Darrien Gipson (15:48):
And we just ran it through because we were like, here are the rules, here are COVID protocols because I'm sat on committees and I'm like, "This is what you're going to do." And we just ran it down and they were able to do it.
Fanshen Cox (15:58):
Love it. So, we'll repeat this also towards the end, and on our website, and on the social media links. But I guarantee you someone's listening right now. Like how do I do this? Can they bombard your email? How do they reach out to you to get this guidance?
Darrien Gipson (16:16):
Well, it's very simple. The website is SAGindie.org, which is of course S-A-G-I-N-D-I-E.org. And that is the first place to go because we have a lot of FAQs. We have the contracts there. We break it down quite a lot. And then if you have questions that's what we're here for. We get a lot of people like, "Oh, I didn't want to contact you." Nope. We're [crosstalk 00:16:43]
Fanshen Cox (16:43):
I just have to put a plug in for it because it is unlike so many of... Just as you talked about when you deal with a development executive whose job often is to say no and they're weeding things out all the time. And they're thinking about so many factors that you have no control of. SAGindie is like, we want your questions. We welcome every... It is a very welcoming, a nurturing environment. And so, do it. Go reach out.
Darrien Gipson (17:11):
Yeah. We because we love it. We love filmmakers and we love project. So, we're willing to help you out. You can email at the website, which I think is info@SAGindie. But that basically goes to my assistant. Or you can call and you'll get her. Anyone who's on my staff can answer basic questions. We can all do it. If you really want me, then just tell my assistant that you heard me on the radio and you were hoping to be connected. And she'll probably forward your email to me.
Fanshen Cox (17:39):
Awesome.
Darrien Gipson (17:40):
Oh and the most important part, it's a free service.
Fanshen Cox (17:45):
Yes. Oh my goodness. Right. Let's talk about that. Yes.
Darrien Gipson (17:49):
Yeah. Absolutely free. No cost to a filmmaker whatsoever. And you can call one time or a thousand times. You can ask this one question a day. You can ask a thousand questions a day, or you can call a thousand times. We really don't care. We'd rather you get it right.
Fanshen Cox (18:05):
That's so good. It's so good Darrien. All right. Since the title of our podcast is Sista Brunch, let's talk about what it's like to be a sister in the industry.
Darrien Gipson (18:14):
Right now is like the heyday. Although as with everything, when we get really happy, you also go, it's a pendulum.
Fanshen Cox (18:24):
Yeah.
Darrien Gipson (18:25):
So, right now the pendulum is swinging in black girl magic and I'm all for it, but it swings back when you least expect it. When I was at DEF pictures, there was a definite decent swing for black filmmakers. A lot of people had deals. A lot of them had black women running or their development if not their company. And it was great. And then the pendulum swung right on back and things stopped being made.
Darrien Gipson (18:58):
The industry changed. So, some of it was everything we expect and some of it was just the way the film business goes. Now, we're coming back and everybody is on the bandwagon of diversity and DEI. And I love that, but I think it speaks to... You were very sweet to say, I get to all the upper echelons of things. I get to mid echelon things. There are plenty I don't get to. But I work in an area where I spend half my time talking to publicists, and agencies, and production companies, and filmmakers who have made 20, 30 films and some amount of streamers.
Darrien Gipson (19:46):
And then I also talk to people who are picking up the camera for the very first time and have no clue what to do. This pendulum swing right now is great. But there's so much looking at what should be said and not as much about what should be done. And it is hard because it's not a clear like, well, you just have to do this. But I'm that person, I'm a bras tax person.
Fanshen Cox (20:18):
You sure are.
Darrien Gipson (20:19):
I'm like, if I help five people today, that's five people who are moving forward. And I never want to do a panel where I'm just talking about like, oh, back in the day. I want to do panels where people have pens and paper and are writing.
Fanshen Cox (20:39):
Yes.
Darrien Gipson (20:40):
That to me is the panel. Like what information do you need?
Fanshen Cox (20:43):
Yes.
Darrien Gipson (20:45):
How can we give it to you?
Fanshen Cox (20:49):
Hey, it's Fanshen and you're listening to Sista Brunch. We'll be right back, and if you haven't done this already, go ahead and follow us on Twitter @Sista Brunch, on Instagram at Sista Brunch podcast. We're also on Facebook at facebook.com/Sista Brunch podcast. Leave us a comment. Slide in the DMS, share your news with us. We want to celebrate your hard work with you. So, because you spend so much time supporting others, which is amazing. You don't often get to talk a lot about your own projects. What are you doing personally?
Darrien Gipson (21:25):
Over the last almost 20 years I've been asked to produce a lot, you know?
Fanshen Cox (21:30):
Sure. Yeah.
Darrien Gipson (21:31):
Just because I have information, I have the knowledge, but running SAGindie is a 26 hour a day business. And so, I have backburnered a lot of it. And then sitting here in my house in COVID times, you realize I really need to do some other things just to keep me sane.
Fanshen Cox (21:54):
Yes.
Darrien Gipson (21:54):
And so, I have a couple of things. One of which is that I auctioned a book series that we're looking to make it into a TV series with hopefully multiple years. A little bit like a bridge or tip in the way that they do their films not subject. But yeah.
Fanshen Cox (22:15):
Love it.
Darrien Gipson (22:17):
And I'm writing a shot that I think I'm going to produce later on. If I can get three weeks to myself.
Fanshen Cox (22:24):
Listen, get three weeks to. Not, if I can. Take yourself your three weeks and do this. Now, you shouldn't have said that because I will be your accountability partner whether you asked me to or not. And I'll be checking in on you to see how that's going.
Darrien Gipson (22:40):
That's fine. Would you take my children?
Fanshen Cox (22:44):
Yeah. I was going to ask you, do your children also have to get their master’s degrees in order to be invited to the Thanksgiving table?
Darrien Gipson (22:53):
I haven't said that. However, I'm trying to be cool mum.
Fanshen Cox (22:59):
You're the model. But you're the role model for it. So, maybe they'll get it through osmosis.
Darrien Gipson (23:05):
I mean, going to college was not a question. My oldest is a junior in high school. So, we're just starting the whole college thing now.
Fanshen Cox (23:13):
Okay.
Darrien Gipson (23:14):
And then my youngest is graduating from eighth grade. So, he is about to go into high school. So, going to college obviously, and I have been very, very careful about trying to ask them, "What do you want to do?" "What do you want to do every day?" Because whatever you would do on your weekends on your own is the thing that you should do to get paid. Like if you love it, find what you love and then try to get paid for that thing. And so, I'm definitely there with my daughter, I'm going... She's like, "I think I like writing and creative" and I'm like, "But don't you want to do engineering?" I had to hear myself and go writing is a wonderful profession.
Fanshen Cox (24:02):
Yes.
Darrien Gipson (24:04):
Please get a job too.
Fanshen Cox (24:07):
Well, actually I'm really glad you said that because we've gotten braver and braver, and with our guests, because we know how important this information is for our listeners. And we ask about salary ranges to the extent that you're comfortable. What is your... And especially knowing that this is your own business, which is just awesome. Are you comfortable talking about what you get annually? And does that sustain you?
Darrien Gipson (24:34):
As an executive director of a national organization, I think that there is a wide range of salaries depending on the size and scope of your company. And for me, we're a corporation. So, we're not a not for profit, but we do operate as a not for profit because we get a grant-
Fanshen Cox (24:58):
Okay.
Darrien Gipson (24:59):
... In what we do, which is why we don't charge anyone. But what that means is that we don't get raises really.
Fanshen Cox (25:07):
Right.
Darrien Gipson (25:08):
We get cost of living if you live somewhere other than the United States.
Fanshen Cox (25:15):
Okay.
Darrien Gipson (25:15):
Our cost of living increase like, oh, you get 2%. We are like, that's not helpful.
Fanshen Cox (25:21):
Yeah.
Darrien Gipson (25:22):
So, we don't increase a lot. So, I don't get paid a ton. I am low, low six figures.
Fanshen Cox (25:28):
Okay.
Darrien Gipson (25:29):
And I know that other people may be at the upper echelon. I think of where people are in like executive director for film. They can often be 400, but I will say that as I've talked to people, and I've looked at things, or people have approached me about, "Would you be interested in this job?" I realized that there are a lot of people getting paid less than me, which is shocking considering I feel like I don't make any money.
Fanshen Cox (25:59):
Right.
Darrien Gipson (26:00):
So, there are people who are doing jobs that I thought would be considered either big jobs or making those jobs for very flashy companies who are still in that $100,000-$125,000 range, which by most standards is a very fine amount of money.
Fanshen Cox (26:23):
Yeah. [crosstalk 00:26:24] And what others get paid. I know I'm hard on them on this podcast, but mediocre white men get paid or tend to get way more than that. And especially those of us in the diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility space. It's frustrating to know that again, even though compared to lots of other positions, it is plenty but comparatively to what the other folks do or don't do for the money they get. It can be frustrating.
Darrien Gipson (26:58):
I think my mom was always surprised like, oh, it's just all so much money. But if you're living in a big city, then the expenses are so much more. Our kids went to private parochial school for most of their lives. And now, they're going to a private high school. And I look around these high schools when we were touring and these schools are as much as Harvard. They are $45,000 a year to go to high school.
Fanshen Cox (27:33):
Yeah.
Darrien Gipson (27:33):
And I look at people who have 3, 4, 5 kids and I'm like, oh, LA has rich people.
Fanshen Cox (27:42):
Right.
Darrien Gipson (27:43):
I mean, I knew that there were rich people there. I didn't realize that [crosstalk 00:27:49] I mean, that's rich. It's like what Chris Rock says, the guy who lives next door to him is a dentist. I was like, wait, these are just folk
Fanshen Cox (27:58):
He spoke, they got money. Yeah. Maybe in the wrong profession. Darrien, this has been so great.
Darrien Gipson (28:07):
I've had such a great time. I have been begging you to come on this for years, but a shameless campaign.
Fanshen Cox (28:15):
We are so glad. And really this is exactly the information that we want to have out there. The work you do does not get enough fancy glamorous press. I want to uplift you and let folks know about the work you do all the time everywhere we can. So, we are glad to have you. And I do think we need to talk more about the positive things that happen in the industry. And you are such an important part of the positive things that happen. So, we're so glad to have you.
Darrien Gipson (28:47):
Thank you. That's so sweet.
Fanshen Cox (28:55):
Thank you for listening to Sista Brunch with me, Fanshen Cox. That was our conversation with Darrien Gipson. Visit SistaBrunch.com to find out more about Darrien and how to support all of her upcoming projects. You can follow us on Instagram at Sista Brunch podcast, we're also on Twitter @Sista Brunch, and we're on Facebook at facebook.com/Sista Brunch podcast. Have you got questions for our ask Sista Brunch segment? Then visit Sista Brunch.com.
Fanshen Cox (29:24):
Fill out our question form and we might just read yours and answer it on the air. Also, sign up for our monthly newsletter. You'll get job tips, viewing recommendations, and lots more. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review our show on iTunes. Your support is so important to us. And also we want feedback. What are you thinking about the show? Do you have ideas for guests, topics, things that you'd like to hear? Let us know. Our senior producer is [inaudible 00:29:53], our show producer is Brittany Turner. Our executive producer is Christabel Nsiah-Buadi. We acknowledge that the land we record our podcast on as the original land of the Tongva people for those of us in Los Angeles. Take care everybody.