Ann James is Making Intimacy Intersectional
Episode Description:
Ann James is an Intimacy Coordinator.
Learn more about INTIMACY COORDINATORS OF COLOR below:
Transcript:
Fanshen Cox (00:11):
Welcome back to Sista Brunch with me Fanshen Cox.
Anya Adams (00:14):
And me Anya Adams. We're so glad to be back and talking to you about black women plus in the media and entertainment and arts. We're so excited for today's guest you all. Today we're talking to producer, director and intimacy consultant Ann James.
Ann James (00:29):
Hi, it's so good to be here.
Anya Adams (00:32):
It's so great to have you and guys she has founded something called, the Intimacy Coordinators of Color for those of you that are in the industry, that is like nothing we've ever seen. So we're going to dig into that, but it's an organization that supports and promotes decolonized intimacy education and inclusive hiring practices in the entertainment industry. So we're going to delve into that, which I'm really excited about because I think there's some really relevant stuff happening.
Fanshen Cox (00:58):
Completely, we're thinking about a good reference for what is an intimacy coordinator or consultant, because we just started to hear this terminology unfortunately, and because you all have been doing this work for so long but we've talked a lot about this show, I may destroy you. And we noticed that at the end they credit an intimacy consultant there. And if you're watching the show you'll... it's very clear why that's especially important on that show. I'm guessing Anne's going to let us know, it's pretty much important on every set. So we're looking forward to getting into that too. And she's all about making stage and screen safer places for people of color to practice their craft, which is why we're so glad to have you. Welcome to Sista Brunch and let's get it to a sister. Okay. Yes.
Ann James (01:45):
Thank you. Ashe, ashe.
Fanshen Cox (01:49):
Ashe sis.
Anya Adams (01:49):
One of the things we like to really start with all of our guests is your journey from little Bitty Ann to where she is now. Can you just give us a quick summary of how you got from where you were to where you are?
Ann James (02:03):
Sure thing I'm so glad you asked, and thank you for inviting me.
Fanshen Cox (02:07):
Glad to have you.
Anya Adams (02:07):
Of course.
Ann James (02:08):
This is such a nice opportunity to just have a chat with some sister women and talk about this new field. I came to intimacy coordination and direction through some experiences that I had when I was in university. I went to school in the eighties and back then the relationships between professors and students were quite lax. So we had professors and students dating, which is a big, no, no. And that was just the climate that I had when I was a student and also then the AIDS crisis hit and it hit hard. In my theater department, we had 54 drama majors and in 18 months we lost 14.
Anya Adams (03:00):
Holy shit!.
Fanshen Cox (03:01):
Wow, wow.
Ann James (03:04):
So, literally we were removing desks out of classrooms because they were empty and we knew who used to sit there and it was chromatic. And so from that, this beautiful thing happened, where as a young directing student I was trying to find ways for people to connect to one another in the scenes of intimacy and back then people were really afraid to touch each other [crosstalk 00:03:29] Yeah and it's funny how history repeats itself. And so I devised this system called the circles of intimacy, which allowed for basically a consent and boundaries practice around acting. And do you mind if I touch you here? Is this a place that is okay? And so I developed that then, then went on to the illustrious career that I have and moved abroad for a few years, 10 actually. Lived in Sudan, lived in Amsterdam, lived in Shanghai.
And through that as a producer worked on various shows and started to reincorporate the circles of intimacy. And when I got back to the States, me too it happened, Toronto Burke, created this wonderful system that has called people out on their misbehavior. And I started looking at information about intimacy direction and I kept bumping into white woman after white woman after white woman, to be quite honest. And I thought that's cool, that's great. But there's no representation for people who look like me and when I dove into that inquiry and was asking, "Why? Well we have this person and this person." And I said, "But are they teaching? Are they in leadership positions?" And kept getting pushed back and pushed back? So I just said, "Okay, fine. I'll just start my own company." And I didn't just do it out of a mushroom.
I put out an inquiry on Facebook saying, "Hey, I'm an intimacy director. I'm looking at this new field that's burgeoning. If you're a person of color and interested just follow this Facebook page." And I got 400 likes and about 40 emails, "Hi, I'm really interested in this field. I'm a personal color, but I don't really feel like getting the training from a white women, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Just honest responses and it's not like the intimacy to give them full credit. It's not like the intimacy directors and coordinators didn't realize that there was a problem. But it seemed like the crest of the wave was happening and we weren't being brought along on that in a leadership front facing kind of way. So yeah. So I've developed a curriculum. We actually have a cohort now and I'm about seven students. We're tiny, but we're mighty.
Fanshen Cox (06:06):
I love it. Well, we should mention too, that in addition to starting your company, you also pursuing America's first simultaneous MFA performance pedagogy and doctoral degree in intimacy direction for people of color at Loyola Marymount. And I'm like... so when do you sleep? Number one. And then number two, much gratitude for you really trailblazing in this way.
Ann James (06:32):
Thank you. I really think it's important to look at the training that is out there, which is again much props to the development of the industry. It's not like I'm throwing shade at any way to the development. Sometimes I get blamed for that
Anya Adams (06:53):
[crosstalk 00:06:53] Because you're starting your own company
Ann James (07:01):
But I'm not... and I just want to do it a different way. And so what this master's slash doctoral, turns out it's going to be probably through the education department. So an ED will do, a simple place intimacy work within an Afrocentric meter. So that the way we come to the material is not a Westernized look at intimacy, but it actually is Afrocentric, which we all know is the OG.
Fanshen Cox (07:36):
The OG intimacy and everything else. This is Sista Brunch with Fanshen Cox and my girl Anya Adams, stay tuned for more of our conversation with intimacy consultant, producer and educator, Ann James. Welcome back to Sista Brunch, I'm Fanshen Cox. Let's get back to chatting with Hollywood intimacy consultant Ann James. What's a day in the life look like for you, if you're working on a set?
Ann James (08:18):
Okay, I'm going to tell you about two experiences. One I did not do. And one I chose to do, because the one that I did not do is almost even more important than the one that I'm going to be working on. I got a call from a line producer. And for those of you don't know what a line producer is, they're the money person who decides what the budget is. And then they go about hiring the people that are going to work on a film. So I was called by a line producer who said, Hey, this is straight up in the... was still in the middle of the pandemic, but this was like hot, hot pandemic. We weren't used to it yet. She said, "Hey, we've got this film. It's going to be right outside of Atlanta on a plantation. And it is a period piece. It goes back in time and it is a sexually violent scene between a black woman and a white man."
Anya Adams (09:14):
Why we're still [inaudible 00:09:15]?
Fanshen Cox (09:15):
We haven't touched the first question.
Anya Adams (09:15):
Don't worry about it, okay but anyway, yay, yay. Okay.
Ann James (09:15):
Oh, and you know.
Fanshen Cox (09:25):
That's right.
Anya Adams (09:26):
Of course.
Ann James (09:26):
I just stopped for a minute because I said, "Lord, Jesus, please don't let me cut this person out."
Fanshen Cox (09:34):
Yes, yes. A frequent conversation in our minds before we...
Ann James (09:38):
I took a deep breath and I said, "You know this person doesn't know what they're saying. They're just trying to do their job." I said, "Well, okay. So take me through exactly what the scenario would be. What do you need me to do?" Well, we need you to choreograph the sexual violence. And I said, "Okay, so all these questions that you ask, how many people are going to be on set, are they clothed? Is there nudity? Are the actors informed about what's going on?" Well, it's going to be in the middle of the summer. So it's going to be quite hot and the conditions are going to not be the best. And I said, well, not to mention that it's on a plantation in Atlanta.
Anya Adams (10:21):
During COVID.
Ann James (10:22):
During COVID and I'm also a qualified COVID-19 compliance officer. So I have that certification as well.
Fanshen Cox (10:28):
So am I, BS.
Ann James (10:30):
Those were concerns as well, like, "We're masking up, I'm assuming. What about craft services?" Like all these questions I had about that. And I said, "Okay, so number one, I'm unfortunately not going to take the gig because, A, I don't want to fly in a plane. B, I don't want to be on a plantation. C, I don't think that this narrative is something we should be digging down into right anymore."
Fanshen Cox (11:02):
Good. We're solid. We've got that.
Ann James (11:04):
We got it.
Anya Adams (11:06):
We got it.
Ann James (11:08):
You can just cut something in, click something in. There's hundreds of references.
Fanshen Cox (11:14):
From all kinds of materials, yes.
Ann James (11:15):
And the other question I asked was... and this is really the brunt of my work and the thrust of my work is, "What have you done to ensure that the actors are mentally okay during the shooting of this." Because if I'm a female identifying actor in that situation, black. How many takes is it going to be? Are we going to do 20 takes of me being attacked sexually? Because, then we need to start thinking about onset therapy.
We need to start thinking about frequent breaks. We need to start thinking about, "Okay, we're done for the day." Who's going to stand in and be that person? So that's the thrust of my work and it's not just taking care of the scenes. It's also taking care of the actors and where they sit in the intersectional crossroads, you're going to have to think about, okay, if we have two mature actors, people are sexually engaged well into their eighties now, but they're different ways. And they're different positions that we have to think about in order to make actors feel comfortable.
If you have a 60 year old actor, they're like, "I had a hip replacement. Okay, so we can't..." So are you in reclined and knowledgeable and trained to take those things into... we may need more frequent restroom breaks. So I'm trying to think of it holistically.
Anya Adams (13:00):
Can you just define for us? Because we say intimacy coordinator, but what is intimacy like, what is that range for intimacy for you, that means that you need to be involved?
Ann James (13:11):
I'm so glad you asked that. For me, intimacy is framed in so many different ways, almost as many ways as there are human beings. So we all think of intimacy in our own way. What an intimacy coordinator, intimacy director does, is they look at the script, they look at the way the director wants to tell the story and then they create the choreography that tells that story. Sometimes we go in and we give consultation to the director and then the director choreographs. That's completely fine too. What intimacy coordinators of color is incorporating into that is maturity, intersectionality, gender, sexual preference, race, culture, all of those things come into, how would a person who wears a hid job hold hands in a public place with a person of the opposite sex. Totally different than two teenage America.
Anya Adams (14:19):
And it's almost a heightened intimacy because of that expression publicly. Interesting, interesting. Hi, it's Anya. And you're listening to Sista Brunch. We'll be right back. If you want to go ahead and use this time to follow us on Twitter @sistabrunch. We're back, we talking about intimacy consultants with Ann James.
Fanshen Cox (14:56):
And have you seen the Netflix film that's creating a lot of questions? We talked a little bit about this and Anya I'm sorry.
Anya Adams (15:04):
So on fire about it, Cuties.
Ann James (15:06):
No, but I have followed that story since it came from France, because I remembered just the horrible press that it got because of the marketing materials in this country. And now there's... because the marketing was totally different in Europe. They were pictured as little girls, little saucy, little pepper girls, which I love. Girls at the height of girl down. But when they got here, they were sexualized in some way, whether their positioning or the photo that they took or whatever. It came to a completely different... and then you know people, how come we've had dance moms for like a generation.
Anya Adams (15:53):
I know let's be clear, let's be true
Fanshen Cox (15:55):
And all the pageants, pageantry. And then what they put in those-
Ann James (15:58):
In the hotsy, totsy outfits.
Anya Adams (16:00):
Let's be clear. Their reaction is ridiculous. I'm so fired up about it because I really feel like this black woman who was really trying to explore sexuality in young women, which we never see on television, we never see in movies and it's not always like, "Oh, my first kiss with the guy behind the..." It's not that, and especially if you're from another culture, you come from Ghana to whatever, Atlanta you're trying to fit in the best you can and what you see as this hyper-sexualization all around you. I personally think the movie it's quite hard to watch because it's showing us what's happening.
Fanshen Cox (16:45):
We were talking about... because my father is Jamaican. And so you're whining as a little kid, that's... You grew up and that's why I love your intersectional approach, right? Is that there are so many things to take into consideration. And to your point about anything from handholding, in defining what intimacy is, it's... maybe any physical touch at all, but within cultures, within identity groups, that means something so different. And so we need somebody there who's sensitive to that. And that's my concern generally, I think about white folks certainly, some have a breadth of... a whole lot of information and experiences. But when you're on the margins, you see all of it and you experience all of it. Right? You get access to the overrepresented culture as much as you do in your own body underrepresented. So you're more able to relay broader experiences. So I just think what you do is so important. People are... these sets are going to be lucky to have you.
Ann James (16:45):
Thank you.
Anya Adams (17:52):
I think that's you. I was an AD on Insecure, I think season two. And we had a very explicit sex scene. And at that point we didn't have intimacy coordinators. They didn't have one on. I don't remember seeing one. I remember our director really directing the actors and the actress being seemingly very comfortable. The actress, I don't know about the actor. I think that's another thing people need to think about it's like, maybe the woman is hell of comfortable being nude and walking around with the guy who's like, I don't... or the other woman or whatever.
Ann James (18:28):
No, you're bringing up the great point and the same reason why... the question that I had for that line producer for that Atlanta gig. It's like, what about the white guy? Who's caring for him? He's got to, I'm sure he isn't inclined to have this activity in his life. This is not normal for him either. So whose going to reach out to him and check in with him about his breaks, never crossed their mind. Never crossed their mind.
Fanshen Cox (19:05):
So you talked about the show that you said yes to... would you want to tell us a little about that one or what you can? [crosstalk 00:19:11]
Ann James (19:12):
I can't tell you too much about it, but it is a short film project by a ballet professional. So this is a story between an intersex individual and a person who identifies as male. And what that means for people who don't know, an intersex individual is born with nondescript genitalia or a combination of genital additions. And they fall in love and it's this pool love scene, which is going to be so amazing. And this is the first time that I will be choreographing a scene with an intersex individual.
And I'm so excited to start that project because everyone is in the right frame of mind. Everybody is thinking of two other people. When you have a set like that, just like you said, those scenes that you were witnessing where people felt pretty comfortable and the director felt pretty equipped to deal with that kind of seed. I'm all for it. I'm great with that. What we want to do is make sure that everybody has someone they can look to onset to say, "This is not okay. Or I need a moment." The ICO sees that we are qualifying through our company is very excited about being bystanders in the room. So while we're not actively seeking an evolved and moving body parts and making sure modesty garments are in place. We're there to hold space and look and be an observer.
Fanshen Cox (21:05):
Hey, you're listening to Sista Brunch with Anya Adams and me Fanshen Cox. We will be right back. Now back to our interview.
Ann James (21:31):
We don't have the sex police energy. We're not there to be like, "No, you can't do that. You can't do that. You can't do that." We're there, "Yes, and what about this? No, but what about this?" I want to instill my students and the people who come through our program with that professional enthusiasm to get exactly what the director wants or maybe more.
Anya Adams (21:56):
So when you say no, is that no from the fact that you've spoken to both of the actors and really drove down what they're comfortable with? How do you know that's a yes or no?
Ann James (22:08):
The way it breaks down is that before you even get on to set, there are writers. So the contract will have the agreement that the actors have willfully said, "Yes, I will do this, this, this, this." And the writer after reading the script, consulting with their team, deciding what they're comfortable with. So we really have an outline of what the director wants before we even step onto, at least that's the way it's supposed to work through what SAG-AFTRA is requiring and a lot of networks.
Fanshen Cox (22:43):
Which again, speaks to why it's so important for you to be on set because at that point, the actors don't have anybody who's going to advocate for what's written in the writer. And so you're there to say, "Wait a minute, this wasn't agreed to."
Anya Adams (22:59):
And I'm sure Susan's like, "Thank God Ann's saying something, because I don't want to look like an asshole director." Yeah, yeah, yeah
Fanshen Cox (23:07):
And I was going to say to your point about you're being on set, what I love about that is that, I'm just realizing it's not only about the actors performing the scene, but it's about the crew as well, right? So what if you have back to that plantation, we want black women to be working in crew, but they would be experiencing trauma in watching the scene play out in crew positions. So again, knowing you're there, I think would be really, really helpful.
Ann James (23:37):
You're absolutely right. It's a holistic, we're all in this together and everybody's feelings to be taken into account and we can't get everyone 100% happy. But the main thing is that we have decided as a group to care for one another, no matter what the pace is, no matter... we're going to hit that daily mark, but let's do it in a humanistic way.
Let's do it so that, that key grit, isn't having the whole, whatever they're holding over the scene looking at someone's very private body part, right? That person has to look because that is their job to see. So let's take a moment and breathe through that with that person. And that's the job with that bystander training of just gauging when to call that break, when to ask for a break, when people need to just step away on the crew. Actors are sometimes so pumped on adrenaline that they're going home-
Fanshen Cox (24:47):
They practice for it and-
Ann James (24:50):
Most actors are people, pleasers as well, exactly. They've been through the rehearsal process. They want to do a good job. This might be their first feature film. They want to nail it the first time. But what about the DP? What about the AD? What about... you just have to think of everybody, I do, I do-
Anya Adams (25:13):
I think of it as like it's something that's becoming so much more solid in the industry, but I kind of now talking to you feel like it's on par with special effects, onset like real special effects. I... the way I came that too, is like you have a guy and he's setting up something explosive and everyone needs to know about it and everyone needs to be safe. And the actors that are interacting with this explosive element, there needs to be time because you were talking about, let's take the time and I think that's something too. It's like, we can't rush through this. If we want it to be good, we need to take the time to craft this piece so that everyone's happy. And everyone working in this environment is safe and that's ultimately we're doing is creating safety for people every night.
Fanshen Cox (26:03):
And I can imagine being on the end of thinking about macro budgeting, right? And how can we get this thing made and I would imagine people they're like, "Oh, this is another line item to the budget and we can't do it." But it's exactly what you're saying, Anya. It makes it that much better, a better experience on set as well as ultimately we'll see that, we'll see that people are feeling safe enough to that because as actors too, and crew you have to be vulnerable. You have to let it go, and this way they're going to feel safe enough to let it go.
Anya Adams (26:41):
Let it go.
Fanshen Cox (26:42):
Let it go. That's animation, that's a whole another [crosstalk 00:26:48]
Ann James (26:49):
You are so right. So I have this podcast called intimacy choreography in conversation. Yeah, and with this friend of mine, and we're just like intimacy nerds, okay. We just talk about everything intimacy. And we got an episode about virtual reality and consent, if your avatar is engaging online with another avatar, that's a whole nother level of consent that we haven't even touched yet.
Anya Adams (27:28):
True that. True that.
Fanshen Cox (27:32):
Ooh. Well, along those lines, around how the world is changing around media. So I am recently learning about this site called OnlyFans. So and it was interesting because I was having a conversation with some young women. I have concerns about porn and what it means around what intimacy is, our perspectives on intimacy and what we expect right? Versus what you're able to do when you're filming, you're able to manipulate the ways. And they were pushing back on me saying the great thing about OnlyFans is these women are being empowered because they're getting their own revenue, right? So it's not going to anybody else they're full on business women. And, what does all of this mean? Both that we're being more open about intimacy and at the same time, are there lines to be drawn where what we're viewing is not always what you can actually realistically do in life, is that... You know what I mean?
Ann James (28:39):
I do, I do. Number one, we live in a Puritan established country. So our parameters around nudity and what we see publicly have been controlled by that legacy. When film first started, this is a quick history film at porn.
Fanshen Cox (29:06):
He love it.
Ann James (29:08):
When the film first started, nudity was the situation, people were looking at talkies, penny, one penny talkie watched the naked lady dance and it was all good because it was just you and what you were seeing, then that blossomed out into a film industry where you could actually sit in a room with other people and watch a naked person. That caused the alarm and these restrictions started to come down. So when you get to the forties, there's no more real nudity in a mainstream film. So it goes into like moving into those triple X houses in New York city with those... I romanticize it so much, but Times Square when it used to really be Times Square and there were all the little tiny theaters there where men in trench coats the whole thing.
So then videos started. And so you could have it in your home again. So it fluctuates back and forth. It's nutidy okay? Is watching sex publicly okay? Isn't it more comfortable to watch it at home? But Oh, now we can monetize it. Now that it's pay for play, it's a monetized system again.
And look, there's going to be a certain amount of trafficking and that's a concern. A woman can say, "I am making my own money," but we really don't know. We just trust that she is a self enterprise with certainly some women are being... or some human beings are being trafficked through sites like OnlyFans, PornHub through element of P.
So there is that percentage of danger that comes into it. It kicks the joy and the freedom and the independence out of it a little bit. But for the most part, what I'll say is that OnlyFans, I believe is a very empowering new way for people who identify as marginalized, who can't get on the traditional first rungs of entrepreneurship are finding inroads into stacking their chips like everybody else gets to stack theirs.
Anya Adams (31:50):
Before we say goodbye to you. I just want to ask, do I have to have like a very vibrant and varied sexual past to be an intimacy coordinator? What are... tell us a little bit about the training and what's required of somebody coming in to do the job.
Ann James (32:09):
Thank you for that, it's not true.
Fanshen Cox (32:13):
Because we're like, "Can we have some tips after this call?"
Anya Adams (32:20):
That's late night [crosstalk 00:32:22].
Ann James (32:22):
That's right, that's midnight snack. No, you do not have to have a career in the sex industry to be an intimacy coordinator. I think what this industry desires and wants to attract, at least what I would like to attract is people who have an intersectional life. People who have training or background in theater or television film, if not direct training, some interest and some experience and someone who... I'm not going to go as far as to say is emphatic or empath. But someone who is empathic is someone who has a sense of when things are going well and have a positive vibe, it's all about the vibe.
I can teach you the choreography. We can find somebody to teach you how to tape out of modesty garment. Those are not difficult things. But if you're coming in with this, "I'm going to tell the director how to do this, because I feel like women should be policed and..." That kind of energy coming in that kind of alpha energy that ain't it.
Anya Adams (34:01):
Are they mostly women doing it or are there men that do it too?
Ann James (34:07):
Interesting you should say that because through this podcast that I have, we're going to be interviewing male intimacy coordinators and directors. I'm kind of low key obsessed. I'm like, "Why are you in intimacy coordinator."
Because it's sprouted out of this whole thing of like, we're going to protect women on set for men who are the bad guy. That's how it churned out, yeah I know a few professionals that are male that we're going to just sit them down and we're going to throw questions into them, yeah. And then back out and see what-
Anya Adams (34:50):
See what happens.
Fanshen Cox (34:51):
Nice. And then we'll wrap up with where can people find you, if we want to do what you do or learn about what you do, where can we find you?
Ann James (35:00):
I can be found in IG @annjamesthereal, A-N-N-J-A-M-E-S-T-H-E-R-E-A-L. Then also @intimacycoordinatorsofcolor and then also ic_annandcarly, so find me.
Fanshen Cox (35:21):
Ann, thank you so much. We were so excited to do this because this is new, this is brand new in the industry anyway. And so this has been so helpful. We wish you all the very best moving forward.
Ann James (35:37):
Thank you.
Fanshen Cox (35:38):
And so grateful to you for training folks to do this, can't wait to see you on set.
Anya Adams (35:54):
That was our conversation with Hollywood intimacy consultant, the fabulous Ann James, you can visit sistabrunch.com to learn more about her work with Intimacy Coordinators Of Color. And thank you for listening to Sista Brunch with Fanshen Cox and me Anya Adams. Don't forget to check us out on twitter @sistabrunch or on Facebook @facebook.com sistabrunchpodcast. Don't forget to subscribe and rate and review our show, wherever you get our podcasts. Our show producer is Brittany Turner and our executive producer is Christabel and Nsiah Buadi catch you all later.
