TIME'S UP x SISTA BRUNCH Limited series - Shawn Pipkin and LaFaye Baker

Episode Description:

Shawn Pipkin and LaFaye Baker discuss on set safety.

TRANSCRIPT:

Anya Adams (00:12):

Hey everyone, welcome back to Sista Brunch with me, Anya Adams.

Fanshen Cox (00:15):

And me, Fanshen Cox. We are so glad to be back and talking to you about black women, plus working in the media, entertainment, and the arts. And welcome to our episode two of our series with Time's Up. I'm really still pinching myself, this is actually happening. We are talking with Time's Up on safety, power, and equity in Hollywood. And on today's show, we are focusing on the well-being of women who are not in front of the camera. This has been so important, especially we've had a lot of announcements lately about new databases and all of the grassroots databases that are in existence for hiring crew. So this is so timely. We're going to talk about, how are they protected from toxic workplace abuse? Now today's guests are stunt woman, La Faye Baker.

La Faye Baker (01:06):

Hello, everybody. Hello.

Fanshen Cox (01:06):

Yes. And coming back to us, make sure you listen to her Sista Brunch episode where you get to hear her whole story, director and first AD, Shawn Pipkin.

Shawn Pipkin (01:18):

Hi, everybody.

Fanshen Cox (01:18):

Yes. I'll do quick bios and then you'll get to know them so well during our conversation today. So La Faye Baker, if you have not heard her name, which you should have, she is recognized as the first African-American stunt woman to coordinate a big budget production. She also has over 135 credits as a stunt performer, doubling for women like Regina King, Angela Bassett. Now, Shawn, is a first AD and a director. In her 20 years in the industry, she's worked on shows like Grey's Anatomy, Green Leaf, and Raising Dion. And she is also an alternate on the National Committee of the Directors Guild of America.

Anya Adams (02:00):

La Faye and Shawn, I cannot wait to get into this with you guys today. But what I'd love to just start out with is finding out from you guys a little bit about what you do. So just if you can both give us a quick summary. Pip, we'll start with you. Just tell us what you do.

Shawn Pipkin (02:14):

I am a first assistant director and transitioning to episodic and streaming director. But a first AD on the set is the director's, basically, lieutenant, right hand person, management on the set, one of the safety facilitators of the set. And I'd like to say safety facilitators because there is this misconception that the first ADs are responsible for safety on set. Because first of all, I'd like to say that safety is everyone's responsibility.

Fanshen Cox (02:44):

Okay, yes. Right.

Shawn Pipkin (02:45):

So I'd like to just say that. And what we do is that we help facilitate the studio or the production company's safety requirements and safety protocols. We are definitely not the ones responsible for safety on set. We set the schedule for the TV show and the film, we disseminate information, all kinds of things like that. Now, as a director, what does a director do?

Fanshen Cox (03:11):

So much.

Shawn Pipkin (03:12):

We take the words off the page and create the images and stories that you see on the big and small screens.

Fanshen Cox (03:21):

Love it.

Anya Adams (03:21):

Yes, what about you La Faye? Tell us what you do.

La Faye Baker (03:22):

Well actually, I'm a stunt coordinator, by way of stunt performer. Been in the business for 28 years. And basically, the stunt coordinator helps execute the director's vision and make sure the actor's safe on the set and that the stunt is performed in a safe manner, so the production can go on and we can have a nice action-oriented sequence. We also break down the budget, bring in the right talent, the doubles, do location scouts. We're actually the director's best friend when it comes to the action sequence scenes. And as very few black women, one out of two, that are now stunt coordinators. My first show was Sister, Sister as a coordinator, then introducing Dorothy Dandridge was the highlight of the pivot of my career. It was like, "Oh my God," working with Halle was really amazing. Because she wanted all women in key positions, so it was really a great experience and I really appreciate her for that. And especially now, things are really changing for women.

Fanshen Cox (04:20):

La Faye, do you mind just telling us a little bit about how you ended up doing this work?

La Faye Baker (04:25):

Oh, actually, my background is in gymnastics in high school, college. Gymnastics was my thing. So I actually was working as a probation officer, believe in that? I just resigned from that. I was able to have two dual careers while I was doing stunts. So a probation officer walked up to me and said, "You ought to be a stunt woman." I was like, "You are so crazy." And I haven't jumped on nobody's building or whatever, because I didn't know. I'm an inner city, young lady, I didn't know anything about the entertainment business per se. And every time he would come to our work location, he would just say, "Oh, did you meet somebody? oh my God, this guy's getting on my nerves."

La Faye Baker (04:57):

And then next thing I know I met another stunt man, one of my girl friends and then the camera guy, and they invited all of us to Glass Stones, and the guy and I was talking about. And then after that, I got a promotion in probation. And one of the guys there, his best friend was a stunt coordinator, he was training his son. So I started training with Greg Milam and Dolphin Park, who was a big time black stunt coordinator at the time. And one thing led to another. And actually, my first gig was on location on the heat of the night. I'm just like, "Blessing." That just doesn't happen to anyone. And at the time, there weren't that many black women in the business. I think the two black girls who were really, one kind of moved up to surfing and the other one had broken her back on her job so she really wasn't doing it. So it was about opportunity and timing for when I got in the business.

La Faye Baker (05:42):

And then at that time, there weren't that many roles actually, action for black women. Now, there's so many roles that we have more action. And we have a lot of talented young girls. So I feel it's time for me to pursue and move on to further my career as a stunt coordinator because the body don't really like to hit the ground and recover like it used to. You know what I'm saying?

Fanshen Cox (06:04):

We understand. I love that. I just want to put it out there. Especially for young women, younger girls who might be listening to the podcast, that thing that you're interested in could lead you into a career in the entertainment industry. There are lots of different ways to enter and then rise up all the way into coordinating, being the person who's actually making sure the other stunt performers are safe on set.

Fanshen Cox (06:30):

Hey Sista Brunch family, please don't forget to visit the timesupfoundation.org website. You can find out all about their work and how to follow them on social. You can also follow us on Instagram at Sista Brunch Podcast, and we're on Twitter too at Sista Brunch. And on Facebook, facebook.com/sistabrunchpodcast. Oh and also, please don't forget to subscribe and rate and review our show wherever you listen to your podcasts and do it now, do it as soon as you finish listening to this episode, why not?

Anya Adams (07:06):

La Faye, do you want to talk a little bit about your role in physical safety and also emotional safety on the set with those around you? Those you're responsible with, especially as a coordinator.

La Faye Baker (07:19):

Well actually, as a coordinator, you want to make sure that your double or the person that's working feels really comfortable what exactly what they're doing. And training by far is the most important thing whenever you're doing stunts and being athletically inclined and agile. And also making sure that your actress is safe. A lot of times, when you come on, we have to mimic the actress. And I want to make sure that I bring in somebody that looks or resembles close enough to the actress, the body type. Now, we can get away with the hair and the face because the wigs and because we're shooting from behind.

La Faye Baker (07:48):

But it's really important that I bring in the right person to look like the actors and they can actually execute the stunt as well and then make everyone look really good because it's our responsibility to make sure the actress always looks the best in whatever scene. But when I got in the business, "Don't talk to the actor. Don't talk to the producer. Don't do this." Just watch and emulate the individual. So as a coordinator, I try to come in and pick the best person I feel that has the best skill that can pull off actually the stunt that the director actually wants.

Anya Adams (08:18):

How do you take care of actors that have to do the stunt?

La Faye Baker (08:21):

Right now, I've just recently finished working on Family Reunion and basically, they wanted most of the actors to do their own thing. So I bring in my pads and everything. There's certain ways that you can shoot certain things to make it look as if the actress is actually doing everything. But usually, we bring in a stunt double. The most difficult thing, you're going to definitely have a stunt double come in because you don't want to have a situation that you have to shut down production where the actress gets hurt. And everybody has to go home.

Anya Adams (08:46):

Are there things that you do to help the actor feel safe physically and emotionally stepping into those kinds of things?

La Faye Baker (08:52):

Well, you always want to contact their manager, whoever, find out how they feel about actually doing the stunt. Sometimes they feel comfortable with sometimes they don't. And if you feel comfortable, let me know, but I have pads available for you. But if you don't feel comfortable, we have someone here who can actually help you and assist you. And a lot of times, even when the actors doing their own stunts, you have that stunt double there to make sure to have our eye and make sure she's doing everything right. Sometimes, everyone can see everything so it's the responsibility of the stunt coordinator to make sure there's a stunt double there, to make sure that the actress is safe.

La Faye Baker (09:25):

Most times, African-Americans come into double. That means that you got to double the actress, but there's something called nondescript. Nondescript means that you're running from a building. Anybody can be that particular gender, ethnicity, or whatever. Then you have a utility stunt performer. That means you can be on a show working on a location and you can play any roles where you're maybe assisting the coordinator. Actually, the day of the physical activity, you're just filling in to do certain things that somebody else couldn't do at that time. But like I said, specifically, black women were coming in for just doubling. And if you're a utility performer, you can be on the set for months through the whole duration. And now with Kobe, they're actually having people more on [inaudible 00:10:11] the longevity of for the show to prevent, we try to catch anything or whatever, any losses.

La Faye Baker (10:16):

And then we have the riggers. The riggers are the stunt person's best friend because they got to rig everything. You want to make sure they're rigging. Whether it's wire work, whether it's car work, you want to make sure those riggers on top. So you want to make sure the actresses are actually safe. I just try to make the actress comfortable by talking with them because it's your responsibility to reassure them that they're going to be okay. "You're not going to get hurt. This is how I'm going to do it." You kind of break it down little by little, exactly how it's going to be performed.

Fanshen Cox (10:47):

Thank you, la Faye. And Shawn, you as a first AD and obviously also as a director, you're thinking about all of those roles. So can you talk about that? And then also, do you have any stories of times that might've surprised you or that you know could have gone differently?

Shawn Pipkin (11:02):

I have a situation, and I've noticed this happens with a lot of indie directors, because it's about realism, right. Indie, "Oh no, I want that real. I want that practicality and things." And there was a situation where actor was getting beaten up, literally kicking the crap out of this person on the ground and kicking and kicking and kicking. And I was like, "Okay, so we're going to double that actor that's getting his ass beat, right, and everything." And the director was like, "No, no, no. I want it to be the real thing." And I was like, "Excuse me." And I remember I looked at the stunt coordinator. We kind of like, "Mm." Just let a situation play out. Because a lot of times, you know eventually it's going to come around. And so I didn't say anything. And I was like, "Okay, I know the stunt coordinator's going to say, 'Well, I don't know if you really want, know the actor to be down there and literally getting kicked or whatever.'"

Shawn Pipkin (11:58):

And then the closer and closer we got, it hadn't changed yet. And I was like, "Oh, we're just going to... Well, how are we doing this again? Oh, we're just going to put pads in the front and the back of this actor." And literally, I was like, "What? Okay. Stunt coordinator, come on. Come on." You have to say something like we have to have a stunt double. And the stunt coordinator was like, "No, it's going to be fine. I'm going to talk to my guys." And I was just like, "Okay." And I remember thinking to myself what the stunt coordinator's not saying anything, am I just being a little too over-protective or whatever?

Fanshen Cox (12:37):

Right. Did you talk to the cast member?

Anya Adams (12:39):

Then you had a conversation with that cast member?

Shawn Pipkin (12:41):

Well, I did. And I was like, "How are you feeling about this?" And he's like, "Oh no, I'm fine. I have my pads on and everything."

Anya Adams (12:53):

That's the AD job. You're making sure mentally and physically. I mean, they're adults, right. You're depending on everyone to be professional.

Fanshen Cox (13:02):

Right. But they're in a stressful situation. They need to know that they're going to be safe and comfortable. And that's what you to do. And I can imagine that if you see a black woman that's the stunt coordinator, you might've felt a little more comfortable, right. La Faye to go up and say, "Could we talk?"

La Faye Baker (13:18):

And let me just reiterate on a couple of things. What happens is the coordinator, if they're new, they want to make sure that they stay in grace with the producer or the UPM or whatever. But with me, I'm going to have to let them know because if someone gets hurt, that means my name is going to be out there.

Fanshen Cox (13:33):

It's on you, yes.

La Faye Baker (13:34):

It's on me. And then being a black female, it's even harder because they kind of put the pillow down if you make a mistake. So I want to make sure I'm the aggressive one. I want you guys to know I'm going to speak up and I got to have the best people to do whatever I need, because my name is on the line. And if the director's uncomfortable with it, I have to tell the producers it's not cool.

Fanshen Cox (13:57):

This is Sista Brunch with Fanshen Cox and Anya Adams. Stay tuned for more of our conversation with La Faye Baker and Shawn Pipkin.

Fanshen Cox (14:14):

And we are back. Here is more of our conversation with Hollywood stunt woman and La Faye Baker and director, first AD Shawn Pipkin.

Fanshen Cox (14:23):

If I have to have these conversations in development meetings about hierarchy, first of all, hierarchy is a problem, right. That book Outlier, these South Korean pilots and assistant pilots, they were studying why the planes were crashing. And it was because the copilot, I think, assistant pilot, because of their hierarchy system, couldn't tell the pilot that they were crashing. So they would listen to the black box, but because they could not tell their superior that they were crashing, that they would crash instead of telling them. And Hollywood is so like that, that's why this safety conversation is important. Because if you're not listening to the person that you've hired to keep your set safe, what are you doing?

La Faye Baker (15:08):

Well, they're just really concerned about getting the scene. And sometimes, directors don't really think about it. They just know what they have on paper. This is their vision. I want it this way. If you think about it, when you have production need, then when we think about the stunt, bringing the stunt coordinator at the beginning of production, they only talk about, "Oh, we're shooting we got to be in a court. Oh, there's a stunt. What are we going to do? What's going on?" Because they need to bring the stunt coordinator for the very first production, have the script if there's even a step off the curve, because you can twist your ankle and then production is closed. So it's time for them to understand that stunt coordinators are very important at the beginning just like the producer, director, when you have your table reads, those people need to be there at all times because they can look at the script and see where there's an action, where the possibility of something could arise. So that's why it's very important to bring them in at an early stage in the production or the development stages.

Shawn Pipkin (16:04):

Well, Faye, in the situation that I brought up, where I really thought that the stunt coordinator was going to tell the director, "No, we need to have a stunt double." And I'm thinking, just for a cheap insurance, just have a stunt double, just in case, plan on doing the scene with the real actor. But if something does go sideways or whatever, hey, guess what? We have the stunt double. And what ended up happening is the people that were beating up, they were stunt people. But the person that was getting beat was the actor.

Shawn Pipkin (16:37):

So what happened? Psychologically, these stunt people knew that if they hurt this actor, their career is over. So what happened? You can tell that they were pulling their kicks. You can tell that they were not punches. And it was like, we got to go again. I'm not seeing. And then I was like, "I know why this is happening. These men do not want to ruin their career saying that they broke an actor's ribs." And if it was a stunt double, they will kick the shit out of another stunt person because that's just the job. La Faye, you tell me. Because if it was another stunt person, they know that they can go wild. They'll know how to protect themselves. I don't know.

La Faye Baker (17:19):

Okay. Well, no, no. We still exercise safety too. We don't want stunt people to get injured because as a process also, but we also want to make sure that the actor is comfortable at all times. So it's just important that a coordinator steps in and make sure that they have the right person. I would always have a double on the side just in case, but you never want to get your actors into a fight scene anyways, because what if something just happens, he gets punched in the nose? You don't ever want to do that. You always want to have advising choreograph.

La Faye Baker (17:53):

Regardless of what the director wants, you definitely have to stand up for it and say, "This is how it has to be done because we got to carry on this show." It's just a way of saying or articulating to the director of the production, pulling somebody to the side. "This is the deal. I'm not feeling comfortable. I know we have a stunt double." Because if a stunt person gets hurt, they can easily replace that stunt double with another person. So it's best to have a stunt double versus you having an actress or actor get hurt because you can replace them, production doesn't get shut down.

Anya Adams (18:23):

You guys, both your jobs touch on emotional safety. We've been talking about physical safety, but emotional safety, especially for women in the workspace, it keeps coming to my mind. When I started in this industry, I was a trainee and I remembered being on a stripper set. And all the girls had little pieces of tape over the vagina. There was no coordinator there to make sure they were fine or whatever.

Fanshen Cox (18:48):

Intimacy coordinator, right.

Anya Adams (18:48):

It was just this free fall. And then as I've moved through this time, the introduction of the intimacy coordinator and also really taking time to make sure people feel safe doing what they're doing on the set. So I'm wondering if you guys have seen or feel that with yourselves now in the industry, how emotional safety has changed since you started.

La Faye Baker (19:13):

Well, we all know that the casting couch exists, okay. Sometimes, women are really fearful of not being who they are because they want to do whatever the coordinator, whoever they're dealing with, whatever to make some situations happen. And I've been in situation when I first got in the business where now, I would have a good case. Because people will try to blackball you if you do not actually play the game. I didn't play the game because when I got in the business, I already had my [inaudible 00:19:42] and I had another job. So I didn't really have to play the game. And I don't follow anybody, you have to get in where you fit in. And I just had to do what was best for me and that worked. And with that, you're going to have naysayers and you're not doing what other people are doing, but you have to stand firm because sometimes you become vulnerable and you may give in. With me, that didn't happen.

La Faye Baker (20:03):

I'm from the inter city, so Los Angeles. And being around entertainment and the celebrities, it wasn't like I was fascinated and I just had to do some. I kind of got bit by the bug at an early age and knew about entertainment somewhat, but I didn't know about stunts. I just knew, maybe I could do something. I don't know, whatever, something. So I kind of knew the business a little bit and I just kind of did it my way.

Anya Adams (20:28):

So with the advent of more female coordinators, has emotional safety for female stunt performers increased? Because you're talking about there was a little bit of power tripping happening with these male stunt coordinators.

La Faye Baker (20:42):

It has changed a lot because of the Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby. A lot of stuff has brought more awareness to it. Time's Up is bringing a lot of awareness. But I think, female stunt coordinators, we're going to actually bring a diverse group of people in. We're not going to just think about our friends. Plus we have a different feel. I think we can look at things in a different perspective overall on the set and kind of maneuver. We have a certain type of tactic, women as a whole, how we relate with certain things. Sometimes people like to have a female on set. Things are really changing and now they have to accept us because everybody's asking for diversity and women. Black women are the thing now. And look, I'm really happy with where I am now in all the lists that they have. Even the [inaudible 00:21:29], I'm really happy to be a part of that. All the things that are happening for black women.

Fanshen Cox (21:34):

The ATC list. So many, yeah.

La Faye Baker (21:35):

All that. Yes, yes.

Anya Adams (21:38):

What about you Pip? I don't know if you've sensed the change in it since you started, your responsibility, or how safer or less safe people feel, but also maybe talk about your experience with that a bit.

Shawn Pipkin (21:50):

Yes. I will say that emotional safety and mental safety, it's so important. Because you're right, there's been so much concentration and emphasis on safety since the Twilight Zone accident that happened over 20 years ago, since Midnight Rider accident that happened seven years ago. Obviously, I was not on the film set and there obviously has been a lot of criminal court cases and everything about it. So I will say, allegedly, a lot of things happened because they're still ongoing things. But apparently, there was a movie called Midnight Rider and it's based on, I think, it's the Almond brothers or one of the Almond brothers filming in Georgia. There's a lot of conflicting stories here, so all I will say is that they were on a train track and it was one of the... Is it called truss when it's a bridge? There was a little river underneath and there was a wrought iron bed that was actually on the train track. And again, these are just reports, news stories I've heard. Apparently, a train came through.

Anya Adams (22:55):

There was crew on the track. Camera crew, hair, makeup.

Shawn Pipkin (23:00):

The woman who died was a camera assistant originally from Charleston, South Carolina. And then also, a hairstylist got very seriously injured on top of it. And so I guess when everybody realized that the train was coming, instead of, most humans would just try to save themselves and leave, this young woman went to try to save some camera equipment, apparently.

Fanshen Cox (23:23):

Which leads us back to that issue of hierarchy, right. When you are seeing your set pieces as more important or people on your set feeling the pressure that those are more important than the human beings on your sets. That's something that all of Hollywood needs to systemically change, is the way that we look at human beings, the way we treat human beings. And not on this hierarchy, but every single person on the set is valuable and should be valued and respected and made to feel safe.

Anya Adams (23:58):

Hey, it's Anya and you're listening to Sista Brunch. We'll be right back. And if you haven't already, follow us on Twitter at Sista Brunch.

Fanshen Cox (24:05):

Went back to Sista Brunch, I'm Fanshen. And let's get back into this conversation with La Faye Baker and Shawn Pipkin.

Fanshen Cox (24:23):

If someone is on a set and they are feeling unsafe, what do you both recommend that they do?

Shawn Pipkin (24:32):

Well, I personally would say, if there's someone I would go to either, first AD, assistant director, someone in assistant director department, or go to a unit production manager or a producer. Those are the people that I would physically go to. But every film company, every shoot has a safety hotline where you can also anonymously call in. Every studio has it. They should, majority of them do, where you can call in if you do see something. If you don't want to say anything in person, which I do get, some people don't want to be the whistleblower, "Oh, I don't want to be the one. I don't want people to think that I'm being a crybaby or a tattletale or whatever." So you have that safety hotline. So either one. And this goes to physical safety, this goes to harassment, sexual harassment, all of that, because all of that is ultimately the same, you know what I mean? I know that the accident that happened on midnight rider was very traumatic and it really did wake a lot of people up and it really shook the table and everyone's like, "We have to get this under control."

Shawn Pipkin (25:43):

But there is also that emotional component as well when someone does feel comfortable. Because sometimes, film sets are like high school. You have your bullies, you know what I mean? You have your cliques. And people don't think that, "Oh, that doesn't mean anything. We're all adults here." But there are really people affected by that stuff. Sexual harassment, yeah. That's one thing, but there is also regular harassment that happens a lot of times. You guys know what I'm talking about, like bullying, you know what I mean? That affects people's psyche. That affects people's work. And that is something that really has to be addressed. You hear all these stories about how there are these ADs or directors who pick fights with departments or department heads just to do it, just to set an example. And it's like, "Why would you do that?" You know what I mean? Becca use you want to show people that you're the big man on campus?

Anya Adams (26:43):

Hey Pip, isn't the DGA working on having a racism hotline?

Shawn Pipkin (26:49):

There is a DGA racism hotline. My Miro Campo is now the new Head of Diversity at the Guild. It's basically her office line.

Fanshen Cox (26:58):

We'll have that phone number up on our website. So if you go to the link for this episode, we'll make sure the number's there. And we have to mention Time's Up work in this too, right? At Time's Up, especially with their legal defense fund, you have support now in ways that you never have. So in all these cases, there are places to go. And La Faye, I know you wanted to say also, just where can someone go if they're not feeling safe? Especially a stunt person, a stunt performer.

La Faye Baker (27:24):

Well, of course [inaudible 00:27:26] actually does have a hotline for any type of sexual harassment. You can call in anonymously and talk about it or whatever. And they'll actually investigate and get somebody out there find out what's going on. That's what they've been doing. They also have now a task force to monitor and make sure that black people actually get in their roles. Because they're taking money away from black people when you have another person come in and double with somebody else. Because we need to get paid and we need to pay our bills and we need to make that insurance. So that's pretty much what's really important as well.

Fanshen Cox (27:57):

Well, La Faye, I'm thinking about you so much and what you've done over the years and how much looking at the opportunities for stunt performers makes the systemic racism so clear. Because for a stunt performer, because you have to look like the actor and because there are not enough roles for black actors, then there are not enough jobs for stunt performers, right. Because they've limited us in terms of representing us as a people. And so in that case, I'm assuming, did folks do blackface for stunt performers in order to give a job to a white stunt performer? Black hands, they do that?

La Faye Baker (28:36):

Of course. I mean, they've been doing that for years.

Fanshen Cox (28:38):

Don't tell me it's still going down because we need to get on Twitter.

La Faye Baker (28:41):

I've done so many different articles now about this paint down. You can't paint me up, but you can paint somebody who's down to take the job from me or whatever. Give that black person the opportunity to work there. At this point, there's no reason why you should pay down. We have so many new talented girls. Oh my God, these girls are freaking amazing. When I got to business, we didn't have that many women, black women, that many actresses, and that many stunt women. And we didn't have the roles, they weren't giving us any roles. So you would have to really come in for double. But now, it's different. There's absolutely no excuse. If they don't know someone, then there's black people got to know somebody that can do the stunt or whatever. So they to call us.

La Faye Baker (29:21):

And I think there's a young lady, stunt people of color, she has a whole list of stunt people or whatever. And she's a sister, she created it. It's good for people to utilize their resources. But there's also stunt's availability where you can always, say for instance, I was looking for somebody that was a skateboarding queen. So we had to find somebody. So I found somebody, but none of the stunt girls had a specialty for that. So sometimes, what they have to do is go outside. [inaudible 00:29:46] the person as a specialist. You would do that for anybody else. Or say, for instance, if you need a driver and you feel that the actions want this particular go and make sure that person goes out and trains with that company to get the job. Don't just bring somebody, "Oh, we don't have it. They know they're not changing. Oh, you have one person. She's the best driver."

La Faye Baker (30:04):

Well, she going to continue to be the best driver. She keeps doing all the jobs, nobody else is going to have the opportunity. So you got to figure out how are you going to make sure. I think SAG is trying to create some training programs. And I don't know if you guys are aware of this, that I had created something called the Action Icon Stunt Women Conference Awards. So it was a conference, and I did it for seven years, and I would bring in stunt coordinators. And they would talk about how to break down an action script, how to do a budget, set etiquette. I really wanted women to start thinking outside the box, how to be a stunt coordinator because I figured women weren't coordinating.

Fanshen Cox (30:42):

This is sister brunch with Fanshen Cox and Anya Adams. Stay tuned for more of our conversation with La Faye Baker and Shawn Pipkin.

Anya Adams (31:01):

We're back. Here's more of a conversation with Hollywood stunt woman La Faye Baker and Director for Safety, Shawn Pipkin.

Fanshen Cox (31:09):

We have talked a lot about kind of the individual situations, right, where you're on set and what can you do. Shawn, what can we do systemically? Either what is going down or what could we do to change the entire system around safety.

Shawn Pipkin (31:24):

That is a lot because even though it's against the law and the rules, there is a lot of retaliation. What I think is that it doesn't always have to happen to you. You know right from wrong. If you see somebody else being harassed, sexually harassed, or somebody else may be in danger for safety, we are each other's keeper. We are our brother's keeper. And I think we really need to be more cognizant of that. We have to take care of each other. We can't just always think about ourselves. I think there really needs to be some type of mechanism. And I wish I had the answer, but literally, it gets retaliation. I have seen it. I have experienced it when I have spoken up. And usually guys, it hasn't even been about for myself. It's been for other people. When I have seen wrongdoing or someone being harassed or someone coming up to me. And also, as one of the managers on the set, people do come to me, but I have a legal obligation to pick it up.

Shawn Pipkin (32:25):

I have to pick it up to the unit production manager or one of the producers. You can't hold it in and try to fix it yourself. You cannot even know. You think that, "Oh, I got this. Let me talk to somebody." No, you cannot do it. It has to get kicked up. So I think that people just need to feel safe. In order for me to report something wrong, I need assurance that nothing is going to happen to me. I'm not going to lose my job or I'm not going to get harassed or bullied even more if I speak up and say something. And I just think about all these stories and I hate to harp on him, but Harvey Weinstein, everybody knew what this man was doing for decades.

Fanshen Cox (33:08):

Yes. Everybody knew, everybody knew. Yup.

Shawn Pipkin (33:09):

This man has ruined people's careers. It was reported that Peter Jackson, he wanted to do a project with Daryl Hannah and her last project was with Harvey Weinstein. He calls Harvey Weinstein and Harvey Weinstein says, "Oh man, she's trouble. She's crazy." And he literally says like, "Oh my God. Now thinking about that, I should have done more research. I took his word for it." Why did he say that? She said no to him.

Fanshen Cox (33:36):

Exactly, exactly.

Shawn Pipkin (33:38):

That happens to so many people in our industry. They stick up for themselves and their careers get ruined for just having integrity or trying to stay safe. And it's really, really wrong. And you see there's people that put up with so much to get their career at a certain place. They put up with so much. That's what has to change. People need choices and options. And that, to me, is a privilege. There are so many people that don't have the privilege to have choices or options because listen, if you know that you can get another job next week, or if you know, "Guess what? I can leave this job and my mortgage and rent is going to be paid for the next three months." I will leave that situation. So many people do not have options and choices. And they are stuck in these very toxic and dangerous situations. We need more options.

Shawn Pipkin (34:35):

And again, people of color don't usually have many options. So therefore, they have to take that abuse or they feel they have to take that abuse. Because in my opinion, you don't have to take any abuse. But they feel that they have because they don't have options and choices. So it is really a systemic thing. And there's a lot of work we all have to do. And it starts with opening people's minds and putting a spotlight on this. Because a lot of people don't really understand because they're not in our shoes. There are a lot of people that aren't in a black woman's shoes. They don't get what we go through every day, right? I have this conversation or many sets where I was like, "I'm a black woman in America. I am used to all of this crap. Do you think I got to this level without putting up with so much? Do you think life was easy for me? You think life was easy because I'm at this level? No, I took a lot of crap.

Anya Adams (35:33):

I mean, I think we create situations for ourselves that are unsafe because we are trying to navigate within this world that's [inaudible 00:35:41]. I know I also feel like, "I'm not going to quit. I'm not going to be a fucking quitter. I'm going to stay here." And I feel like that fight to get to where you are and then to see that people take care of themselves in other ethnic spaces, they take care of themselves differently than we do, because we're constantly fighting to get to the place that we want to be.

Fanshen Cox (36:01):

I'll just say quickly. This is why I loved our interview with Monique. She comes out of the organizing world, out of the grassroots world. And crew, especially below the line, these are grassroots folks, always, right? So these are the folks who are always threatened in terms of having to keep the job just to be able to survive. And so systemically, for me, I'm always looking at how do we strengthen the grassroots? So when we see A-listers doing anything and that goes for the inclusion writer and I'm proud of it, but it relied initially on the A-listers. We're really trying to expand it to say, "No, this isn't just for A-listers. This is for the gaffers assistant. This is for the PA on set that can say, 'This is important to me.'"

Fanshen Cox (36:46):

And so I think it is really us unifying those of us in those positions and those of us in the privileged positions, really unifying with those that don't have those voices to say, "We're going to speak up for you on a set." That's certainly what Time's Up is doing. And they didn't pay us to say that, by the way, we ain't getting paid for this podcast. So we just saying, we appreciate we have these support systems now. We need to focus on the grassroots folks. That is where that effort lies. And not to mention, I'm sorry, I'm sure you all have noticed this too, the integrity always seems to be so much stronger in the grassroots.

Shawn Pipkin (37:26):

Absolutely. Absolutely facts. Fashion, like integrity, integrity, integrity. There are many people who their integrity is not that strong. And therefore you see, they enable.

Fanshen Cox (37:37):

They have tended to be those who are in the positions of power in Hollywood. That was attractive. That was charismatic in the best of ways. Even politically, we have people like AOC that's changing that within the government and we can change that within Hollywood, right. We can look at the folks who are doing that and support them and be that, be unified with them.

Fanshen Cox (38:05):

La Faye, it's such an honor to have you on the show.

La Faye Baker (38:09):

Oh, really. Thank you. Thank you for having me. And I'm glad to be talking about stunt coordinators because people don't know we're out there and I just think we, like I said, it's only one or two that are out there that are qualified and we have one in Canada who is amazing.

Fanshen Cox (38:23):

We will be lifting y'all up everywhere we can. Shawn, as always, we are so grateful for everything you do. Come back any time.

La Faye Baker (38:32):

Hey Shawn, I'm looking to work with you, girl. What's up?

Shawn Pipkin (38:35):

I know, yes.

Fanshen Cox (38:38):

Yes, please. Yes, please. Make it happen.

Shawn Pipkin (38:41):

Yes, yes. We definitely have to work together. And I'd just like to thank Time's Up. It's very important work, lot of work to do, but let's do it. Let's get it.

Anya Adams (38:57):

Thank you so much for listening to Sista Brunch with me, Anya Adams and Fanshen Cox. That was our conversation with La Faye Baker and Shawn Pipkin. Visit sistabrunch.com to find out more about them and their projects. This episode was created in partnership with the Time's Up foundation, our show producers, Brittany Turner, our executive producers, [inaudible 00:39:18]. We acknowledged that the land we record our podcast on is the original land of the [inaudible 00:39:24] people for those of us in Los Angeles. And the Amish [inaudible 00:39:30], Chippewa, [inaudible 00:39:31], Inuit, and [inaudible 00:39:33] for those of us residing in Toronto with Anya. Can't wait to see you next time. Take care.