TIME'S UP x SISTA BRUNCH Limited series - Christena Pyle and Winter Dunn

Episode Description:

Christena Pyle and Winter Dunn discuss Black representation in the past, present and future.

Transcript:

Fanshen Cox (00:11):

Hey, welcome back to Sista Brunch with me, Fanshen Cox. Now, Anya's not with us this week—she is filming—but we have an incredible show lined up for you.

Fanshen Cox (00:22):

Today is episode three of our series with TIME's UP on safety, power and equity in Hollywood. On today's show, we're focusing specifically on how to keep effectively pushing for truthful and authentic representations of Black women in media. Our guests are so all about that. Today, we have advertising chief officer, Christena Pyle, and filmmaker and actress, Winter Dunn.

Fanshen Cox (00:48):

Christena Pyle has been a driving force in creating diversity and battling gender inequality in creative industries. She is now the chief equity officer Americas at dentsu, an advertising agency focused on championing meaningful progress. She was the former executive director advertising at TIME'S UP.

Fanshen Cox (01:10):

Winter Dunn is an award-winning actress, producer and director with a passion for telling Black stories through her production company, Winter Dunn Productions. By day, she directs digital editorial content for Conde Nast digital.

Fanshen Cox (01:27):

Welcome, you two beautiful women, Black women plus. [crosstalk 00:01:32] Sista Brunch. Welcome.

Christena Pyle (01:33):

Thank you.

Winter Dunn (01:33):

Thank you for having us.

Fanshen Cox (01:36):

Definitely. We're going to start with Christena because we want to know what is a day in your life look like at work. But Christena, we want to know if before you start that, you can kind of build up from your early days of knowing that you wanted to do this, or perhaps not knowing you wanted to do this, and how you ended up doing what you do today.

Christena Pyle (01:56):

I broke into the advertising industry via a diversity and inclusion program called MAIP, Multicultural Advertising Internship Program. I'm a big believer in programs like this that they actually do work, that they actually do create a pipeline because it was a opportunity of a lifetime that's created a lifetime of opportunity for me. I'm a believer in these programs, and that's how I broke into an industry that was still very white, male, and didn't look too dissimilar to the Mad Men show that was supposed to be the 1950s.

Christena Pyle (02:31):

That was around 2007, which is an interesting time to come into any business. Just around the corner was the financial crisis and getting a job, keeping a job, working through that time was intense. It was, if not dissimilar to what we're navigating through now.

Christena Pyle (02:49):

So I came up in the industry. You have this idea that this is a creative industry, so there's going to be eclectic people. There'll be people of all rainbows and shapes and identities. When you looked behind the curtain, it was your Silicone Valley type bro culture and that culture of sameness. I just saw no people that looked like me in leadership. I saw no people like me that were creating the ads, the creative product. And that wasn't okay.

Christena Pyle (03:21):

When I came in, I had those fairy godmothers who were working on disrupting the industry in the early days before these diversity-inclusion roles that were sexy. This was back in the day when there was no budgets, there's no people resources and there was no promise that you could make a career out of this. This is when I started to do the work of diversity, equity, inclusion, advocating for other people. I had that inflection point in my career where I stopped chasing opportunity and my metric of success was creating opportunity for other people. That's when it took off, when I changed my network, I changed my metrics. I went from wanting those blue-chip clients on my resume to how many people do you mentor, and how many people do you keep in the industry and how many people are you having those behind-the-scenes conversations with about their paycheck?

Christena Pyle (04:14):

You couldn't have told me I would be in this position in this place. I'm six months into a new job with a chief title. I feel really good about it.

Fanshen Cox (04:22):

We feel good about it, too.

Christena Pyle (04:25):

It is the opportunity in the runway to make the change I've always envisioned being able to make.

Fanshen Cox (04:31):

Christena, let me ask you real quick. With entertainment often... It's very visible. We see actors, for example. Even though we talk about, "If you can't see it, you can't be it," at least now more and more... I think young Black girls are seeing women like Viola Davis to aspire to. But how did you even know that advertising was something... Given that you can't put a face to it, anyway, did you have any specific sparks early on that said, "This is the thing I want to do"?

Christena Pyle (05:01):

Not at all. My trajectory into advertising was topsy-turvy. In college, I was on TV. I was on MTV on one of those challenges. Nobody gives me respect for that. My parents think it's cool.

Fanshen Cox (05:15):

I like it.

Christena Pyle (05:16):

I came back to school little bit of a lost soul, deviating from what I studied originally, and a professor saw me. He saw me and knew of this opportunity to move to New York and to get this professional training. I came up with some [inaudible 00:05:33] that came out of this program. It was really somebody who saw me and me taking a risk.

Christena Pyle (05:39):

And then I found out this industry, the advertising industry, was not designed for me. It wasn't designed for me to be great. It wasn't designed for me to have influence and longevity. Like I said, I had incredible early mentors, the godmothers, that were at the beginnings of majorly disrupting the advertising industry. I supported those women and now, I have a whole cohort of young women that are pushing me forward.

Fanshen Cox (06:08):

Winter, do you want to jump in here?

Winter Dunn (06:12):

I'm inspired. It so resonates with me this feeling of someone saw me and gave me a shot. Because the industry I wanted to break into, there was no space for me, or it didn't feel like there was a space for me. No one was holding the doors open.

Winter Dunn (06:26):

But I've had similar opportunities where coming to LA, wanting to make film, wanting to make TV but not really having an in... And I came here as an actress. I have a theater performance degree. In some spaces, that's a respected thing. But in others, it's not. It's like, "Oh, you're just talent. You don't belong in some of these conversations."

Winter Dunn (06:48):

I had to prove to people that I belonged to be there. Some people saw me and went, "You know what? Let's give her a shot. Let's bring her to set. Let's see what she can do," and then from there, you work your ass off so they'll doubt not seeing you from the beginning.

Fanshen Cox (07:03):

Absolutely. It is so all about having those folks who lift you up. Sometimes, maybe they don't look like Black women. In my case, certainly most of the time, they are other Black women who have been doing the work. I think you're constantly looking out for who could be an ally, or hopefully they're looking out for you.

Fanshen Cox (07:24):

This is Sista Brunch with Fanshen Cox. Stay tuned for more of our conversation with Christena Pyle and Winter Dunn.

Fanshen Cox (07:30):

Hey, welcome back to Sista Brunch. I'm Fanshen Cox. Let's get back into this conversation with Christena Pyle and Winter Dunn. Can you talk about the state of Black women's representation from your perspective?

Christena Pyle (08:04):

She's just coming out with some big questions.

Winter Dunn (08:06):

I know. Wow, that is a big one. I think for me, in talking about the Oscars, the Grammys, I'm going to be just thinking about that quite a bit. But in some regards, I do think that we are being celebrated and awarded and being put on platforms that we weren't before. We're seeing people like Meg Thee Stallion who does not look like a performer type we would've accepted even two, three years ago: dark-skinned, tall, just her physicality is not what the industry would consider feminine, at some point. Whether you like her music or not, it's great to see women of all shades, Black women of all shades, of all types, being able to stand up on these major platforms and claim their awards. But also-

Fanshen Cox (08:51):

So are we good? We got all our representation. We're good to go now. We can stop fighting now.

Winter Dunn (08:57):

No, we're nowhere close. To me, it's like I always want a Black woman to win, but I'm also looking at why are we being awarded. What's the intention behind it, and what are trying to benefit or get from it?

Christena Pyle (09:09):

I'm glad you led with the positive because there has been a lot of progress. We have to pause because a lot of us have been behind the scenes pushing for progress. We can't just say nothing's happened, no movement, no change, no greater representation because I watched the Oscars and there was a lot of us nominated and us winning.

Christena Pyle (09:29):

But I feel like is it now too late when Oscar ratings are really low? We're in this very disruptive year. Now they want to honor us and award us?

Christena Pyle (09:42):

Do you guys remember when Friends was going off the air, maybe the last two seasons, and that's when they first introduced representation to New York City? That's when they first brought in Aisha Tyler. There's a pattern of shows that hit their popularity or close to the end and that's when they will answer the call for more diversity, more inclusion, more representation.

Christena Pyle (10:06):

I'm seeing that a little bit with the Grammys. We know the ratings, the Grammys, the Golden Globes, the Oscars. We know a new generation's coming in saying, "I don't want to watch you guys celebrate yourselves." I'm feeling a little skeptical.

Fanshen Cox (10:19):

And I'm like, "Can we get a retroactive Oscars?" Can we celebrate Love Jones? All these things that just have not been accessible to white audiences but we know are brilliant, what about [crosstalk 00:10:33]?

Christena Pyle (10:32):

Like Morgan Freeman. We're really going to give him an Oscar for Million Dollar Baby? I can think of a couple other.

Fanshen Cox (10:38):

Yeah. We can list them, can't we? So yes, we're nowhere near where we want to be, and we have every right to critique and question why we are where we are right now. A lot of it is performative, isn't it? Just like all the black boxes on Instagram in the summer.

Fanshen Cox (10:57):

To that point, what is the responsibility... Let's take, first of all, the responsibility of Black creators. What would you say right now, what is our expectation for Black creators in terms of whatever it is that they can do to be represented?

Winter Dunn (11:18):

For me, at least, I think it's our responsibility to be authentic and to show our authenticity. It's like as a creator, as a storyteller, I can only show you who I am. I can choose to say other narratives, of course, but I think it's important that we continue to make films, continue to create narratives that are our authentic representations.

Winter Dunn (11:38):

I do think it's something to say about not trying to entertain everybody. It's like I want to entertain my people. If you enjoy it as well, great. But it's not for you, and I'm not afraid to say that it's not for you.

Fanshen Cox (11:52):

I love that. And then I'm so curious about Christena, who's on the end of having to sell it as something that's universal enough to profit. How do we walk that line? And I'm with you, too, Winter. I'm like, "This is not for..." This might not be, for example, no shade, but for a Tyler Perry crowd. This might be for a Love Jones crowd. But then Christena, you're in that position where you're like, "How do I make sure the largest crowd possible sees it?"

Christena Pyle (12:20):

That is a tough question. I'll answer your first one because I think Black creators have a spotlight in the moment and have an opportunity to show people what inclusion looks like. We can show the full diaspora of Blackness and we can bring in other underrepresented groups. Especially in ads and film, our Asian brothers and sisters still are sorely lacking in representation. And we can also show just the intersectionality of Blackness, the queer experience. I think Black creators can show, Hollywood can show, Madison Avenue can show them what good looks like.

Christena Pyle (13:00):

And then to appeal to the mass audience, I feel like that is not when great work breaks through. Our industry, we create work to sell products, but we really try to understand the consumer and understand that single-minded insight and build something. That's the Cannes award-winning work. That's the work that other creatives in my industry celebrate.

Christena Pyle (13:20):

And the clients are looking for it. I mean, that's why Black voices have such a seat at the table, because we're telling different stories, new narratives and different voice.

Fanshen Cox (13:29):

Okay, so to pull back from that a little bit on both your ends, what does good look like? Because I know part of the problem is that even good for so long, based on these award shows, was the white gaze of good. Whatever they determined is good storytelling, is what they... And it always erased us. But what are the elements that you have to have to make it good?

Winter Dunn (13:55):

It's like the writing has to be there. We have to have a strong story. We have to have a protagonist that has an objective that they are fighting for. We have to watch them fight for that thing and fail, get up, fight again. I mean, we can talk about story structure. I think as long as you're sticking to what makes a good narrative, to me it's a good piece.

Winter Dunn (14:16):

Now, if we're talking about what I like, I've been really trying to look at people's work that isn't for me and still try to allow it to have its space. Because I think what a lot of white creators have had the space to do is to make very basic, regular, not great, not... Just a movie for the sake of, "Because I wanted to and I thought it was cool. I wanted to have fun and create something."

Winter Dunn (14:44):

Today, as filmmakers, I would hope we're still artists. There's business to it, but we're artists first. I want to allow Black creators and other people of color... Just make some stuff. Have fun. Figure it out. And then eventually, of course we'll have those that stand out, that are making the work that we go, "Okay, this is what we're all striving to."

Winter Dunn (15:06):

There are people that are doing it and doing it well, but I really want to be able to have a Black director get paid well to make a silly comedy. Get Hard was on my TV today with Kevin Hart and Will Ferrell. I was like, "I hate this movie. I don't like this." But somebody had a silly idea and they were given... I looked at the budget. I think the budget was 40 million bucks to make their silly movie. I'm like, "I will definitely take the 40 million to make my stories."

Fanshen Cox (15:38):

This is Sista Brunch. I'm Fanshen Cox. We'll be right back after this quick music break.

Fanshen Cox (15:55):

We're back. Here's more of our conversation with advertising inclusion leader, Christena Pyle, and Hollywood triple threat, Winter Dunn. Christena, you've mentioned the word good. What would make it good?

Christena Pyle (16:08):

In advertising, we tell 15, 30 and 60-second stories. You have to capture people's attention and hold people's attention. You have to hero and feature a product, but it all starts with a simple human truth. It definitely with authenticity pulled from a lived experience. These are some of the tenets of what the creative work that you've seen break through.

Christena Pyle (16:38):

I'll reference the Colin Kaepernick Nike work. That is just a definition of what good looks like. It's bold. It's [inaudible 00:16:46] bravery. It is of the moment. It's disruptive. They have good insight and people analytics for where their consumer is headed because they're getting out in front of where their consumer is going to be and tapping into their sentiments. It was a calculated risk, but we celebrated them for boldly taking a stand in a very political climate. That type of work is what good looks like for me.

Christena Pyle (17:14):

We were talking about representation, and I do think... Geena Davis Institute measures in advertising representation in advertising. Black women particularly still... There's still a challenge for how we represent Black women in advertising and in opportunity.

Christena Pyle (17:30):

I'll give you an example because my mom hates the Pine-Sol commercial. She just hates the Pine-Sol commercial. She doesn't hate that lady. The lady's got to get paid, but she just hates that representation of us and as, as cleaning and as a certain type of energy. And then they make us into bottles of Aunt Jemima and Mrs. Butterworth.

Christena Pyle (17:51):

Fast forward, the advertising industry is realizing that we can get to more consumer dollars if we don't just label Black women as not drinking beer and if we don't label women as not into whiskey and if you show us in banking. There's a whole... Right now, lights are coming on for marketers. I'm just like, "We've been here."

Fanshen Cox (18:12):

Now's our time, which is not true at all. They don't even know what it's going to look like when it's really our time. But now that they're actually paying attention, picking up the phone and calling... In my work on the Inclusion Rider, we were creating this link to all the databases in existence that we know of from which you can hire crew because we do not want to hear that you can't find any.

Fanshen Cox (18:36):

But it's another reason why we do this podcast, is not only do you get to know who... You see what this woman's experience is. You get to hear her personal narrative as well. It's authentic, like you were saying, Winter. Winter, especially when it comes to historical narratives, where we have not had the agency to tell our own stories about enslavement or the civil rights movement—in so many cases, it was them—and yet we are triggered and we are tired of seeing struggle, what's your take on that?

Winter Dunn (19:12):

I always go back to authenticity and asking yourself, "What do I have to add to this story?" When we're talking about history, history itself is a long story that we've all collected and we've all agreed this is what happened and we teach our kids. If I'm going to tell a story based on history, my own or anyone's history, I always am asking myself, "What do I have to add to the conversations that are already being had? What is my unique perspective? How is it going to elevate this conversation?"

Winter Dunn (19:44):

In that scope, if I want to talk about my... I'm very interested in generational trauma because that's something I can clearly see throughout my own bloodline. Things that I struggle with now, I can literally trace back to my grandma and then her mom. I'm like, "That's why we became to be who we are." In that regard, I'm like, "If I want to go back to slavery and talk about our experiences from a specific lens, then I'm going to do that," because it's coming from a place of truth and a place of, "I am looking for discovery in this place."

Winter Dunn (20:15):

I think what often happens is we someone's story and we go, "Oh my God, that was so tragic. People would love to go sit and watch it." That's where you get this trauma porn where it's like you really didn't have much to add other than showing how gruesome and terrifying and awful these experiences were.

Winter Dunn (20:33):

If that's the whole point, then there is no point, in my opinion. Now, you're just playing into this game that we don't need more of that. We don't need any more of the game.

Winter Dunn (20:42):

If you have something to really say, especially if that's your history, say it. That's your history. I'm not going to let anybody else who thought they could tell my history stop me from telling the stories that I'm drawn to. But I need to be drawn to it.

Fanshen Cox (20:55):

And the audience will know that you were drawn to it, that it was meaningful to you. Christena, do you have any thoughts-

Christena Pyle (20:59):

It's a little far from my industry, but it's not like I'm not a patron of the film industry. Maybe you're on to something. Maybe there's opportunity for us to revisit everything and just tell it through our lens.

Christena Pyle (21:11):

You are speaking to who's behind the camera, which is... In the advertising industry, the issue is in front of the camera, behind the camera, adjacent to the camera. The frontiers that we're fighting, we're fighting three frontiers in advertising and marketing. It's who are the creatives that are coming up with the idea and conceptualizing? Who do we hire on as the person who's going to steward the idea, the director? And then who are going to be the producers and the casting agent and the animators? There's a whole supply chain that we've been left out on. A whole supply chain.

Christena Pyle (21:46):

We're working on this project right now at dentsu. It's called Project Booker. It's a podcast hosted by Gia Peppers. You should check it out. It is the example. We launched it second week of Black History Month. Why we're so proud of it is from concepting the idea to the production company to the media to the broadcaster and even the host, everything from the talent to... The whole supply chain is Black excellence.

Christena Pyle (22:14):

And so what does that look like? What have we been missing out on? What is the opportunity? I think there is an opportunity in that across Hispanic, Asian, LGBT, but...

Winter Dunn (22:25):

What I love about what you're saying is that a lot of people think that "Oh, we just need to see people of color. It doesn't really matter who are the people or who made the thing exist. As long as the person in front of the camera is a person of color, then it's fine." But how does the piece shift, and how does the perspective of the conversations you all are having shift having a team of people who all get it?

Fanshen Cox (22:46):

Hey, it's Fanshen. You're listening to Sista Brunch. We'll be right back. If you haven't already, go ahead and follow us on Twitter at @SistaBrunch.

Fanshen Cox (23:06):

And we are back. Here's more of our conversation with Christena Pyle and Winter Dunn. We continue to hear, "We can't find people." How do the two of you respond to that?

Winter Dunn (23:21):

It's production in the year 2021 and you're telling me you can't... To me, I'm like, "You're not trying hard enough because I have several friends who are waiting to get a job." I mean, come to me. I'll link you to... There are so many creatives in this industry, so many creative minds in this industry. I think especially with the growing of technology—everyone has a phone—I think everyone is... Hollywood isn't this big mystery that it used to be, where it was like, "I know I'm creative, but I have no idea where I could possibly start so I won't even take that route." It's like you go on YouTube, you go on Instagram, I see so many people making, "Oh, here's a cool way to shoot a short." It's everywhere.

Winter Dunn (24:02):

It means that so many people that would've already been interested have tools now and resources. And that's talking about low-level education, just learning on your own, not even tapping into how many film students do we have who have graduated in the business saying they can't find a job in every major city in this country.

Winter Dunn (24:22):

To me, it's like that's BS. If you just looked a little bit, literally a little bit, you would find people ready to work. [crosstalk 00:24:29].

Christena Pyle (24:28):

Our industries are bad, but Hollywood... I answer that question a long, slow blink.

Fanshen Cox (24:34):

Yes.

Christena Pyle (24:38):

I just feel like Hollywood, if you pull back, was an industry of a lot of nepotism, a lot of like hiring like, a lot of sameness. We can do down the list, all the child actors of the Michael Douglases and the Gwyneth Paltrow and the Barrymores and the Houstons, the Fondas. You go down a list, how do you find people? They honestly looked in their living room to find the next greatest talent.

Christena Pyle (25:03):

That's not the solution for us. We have to understand and dismantle the hiring process. In advertising, there's a lot of bias in hiring. People are shorthanded. They want to hire people that make them feel comfortable. Sometimes, we look at people that are different from us and we want to hire them on credential. We scrutinize their credentials for the role, and then we see somebody that reminds us of us and we hire them for potential. Credential versus potential creates a whole avenue for some people and not for others.

Christena Pyle (25:33):

Things like unpaid internships. Unpaid internships are for privileged people, no matter your race. You're cutting out a whole industry of very hungry people that can't afford to work for free. There's so many tactics when we look under the hood of why we weren't able to find and hire these people. And then where it doesn't exist, build relationships. Feed the pipeline. There's so much we can do.

Christena Pyle (26:00):

We need to take... Ava DuVernay took her skills over here and translated them over here. We don't have permission to do that. We don't have permission to do that. Or-

Winter Dunn (26:09):

Sorry. Sorry to cut you off. I was going to say I love what you're saying. It feels like in this industry, there's a lack of desire to acknowledge our habits in this business. It's like the moment you realize, "Oh, this is the standard, and that standard is not right. It's just what we were doing," it automatically makes you change your perspective. Immediately, you're like, "Oh, so what is another way of doing it?"

Winter Dunn (26:32):

But I think in this business, nobody wants to address themselves because we're so terrified of being labeled bad or racist. It's like we're so terrified of being canceled, that we won't actually just have the difficult conversation to go, "Okay, where was I a part of this system? How was I complicit in it and how do I shift it?" It doesn't always have to be so complicated.

Christena Pyle (26:52):

You just nailed it. No, you just nailed it. And it's actually harder... I'll tell you this. I was considering several roles in this hyper moment of looking for the work that I do. I told you, back in the day I was like, "I don't know how far I can ride this." Now, in the moment of quarantine and a pandemic and Black Lives Matter and state-sanctioned murders of unarmed Black people, there is a heightened demand for the work I do.

Christena Pyle (27:21):

I was considering multiple opportunities before taking this one at dentsu. It was with another more "liberal" and very creative, very loose company. I'm at a point in my career where I have to look... I can't just look at compensation. I have to look at where I can make impact. That is what's going to get me my next role. That is my reputation. That is what I spent all of this energy and inertia doing.

Christena Pyle (27:48):

In that more liberal and creative and flat environment, that's where I thought it would be more challenging to create change because they already think, Oh no, this is how we operate. We're already fair. What are you talking about bias? I have other people who are like, "Well, teach me. So teach me."

Christena Pyle (28:07):

That reminds me of that Hollywood malaise where everybody thinks they're already creative. We look under the hood at the Sony [inaudible 00:28:15] and we're seeing insidious racism on display.

Fanshen Cox (28:19):

Hey, you are listening to Sista Brunch with Anya Adams and me, Fanshen Cox. We will be right back.

Fanshen Cox (28:37):

Hey, welcome back to Sista Brunch. I'm Fanshen Cox. Let's get back into this conversation with Christena Pyle and Winter Dunn.

Fanshen Cox (28:45):

I'm sitting here reflecting on the interesting fact that part of the lie that we kept getting told was that advertisers wouldn't be able to advertise on shows that represent us because there weren't enough Black women drinking whiskey, as an example. But then we couldn't get the jobs because they said it would cost too much to get the advertising.

Fanshen Cox (29:11):

That's what's so, I think, brilliant about having the two of you on here, is that you both can say to the industry, "You've been lying. You been lying. You've been telling us about this position over here and why that's a barrier for us. We've got a representative from that position that's saying you been lying."

Christena Pyle (29:35):

That's why the data, it's important. The frontier of the work we do is in the data and not... We can't believe these stories that "Black doesn't sell internationally. That's why we don't make these big films." It's really backing it up with data. That's what I'm having to dig into in my work, is to show you your lack of representation, show you the audience that you can get from this type of creative work, show you how much of your entire hundred million dollars spent goes to minority-owned media.

Christena Pyle (30:06):

The numbers don't lie. People do. People lie, not the numbers.

Fanshen Cox (30:09):

And then [crosstalk 00:30:09], we recently had a representative from IllumiNative come in, which is a nonprofit all about representation of indigenous and native people. Part of their data was the lack of representation of indigenous people has these direct correlations with suicide, direct correlations with alcoholism. It's tough because they tend to just want to hear, "Look, you're losing money." But do you need to sometimes come in and also say—Christena, I'm curious for your part—"This is the damage you are doing by either misrepresenting Black women or erasing Black women from these experiences in the world"?

Christena Pyle (30:56):

It depends on who you're talking to. I think you get to our level collectively by understanding your audience. Sometimes, I go in with the business implications of not including these folks or not hiring these folks or, "Let's look ahead to where we're going. We're meant to serve these consumers, but you have nobody that looks like them, understands their sentiment, their taste." Sometimes, you make a business case and sometimes, you appeal to the humanity of it all, the moral... It's different audiences and you come with both.

Christena Pyle (31:28):

Over the years, you learn to arm yourself with all of it. The business case at my company was something I pressure tested. I'm like, "Am I coming in here having to sell you on the business case of diversity, equity, inclusion? Because I'm tired. I'm tired. I need to actually start working." It was refreshing to see it was more... The question and the appetite was more of like, "Where do we get started?" That's what I can get down with.

Fanshen Cox (31:54):

Okay. Winter, thoughts on that?

Winter Dunn (31:57):

I love you. I love your title and I love that you do the work that you do because I'm not someone who is data-driven because I'm a creative. For me, it's always stemming from the heart, to some capacity. When I see people... One thing that is starting to frustrate me is that the idea of diversity, inclusion is always seeming to surround around money and the money you're losing by not including us. I'm more so like, "Why don't you care about the trauma that you've inflicted?" It's like why don't you seem to want to hold yourself accountable for what you've already done? And then we can also talk about how we can move forward and how that affects your business. Especially given the year we just came out of, 2020 with George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and everyone so worked up and so emotional and "Oh my God, we care so much," and "I can't believe we missed this..."

Fanshen Cox (32:47):

Yeah. Where the fuck y'all been?

Winter Dunn (32:49):

That's [crosstalk 00:32:49], but then what? Where have you been? How did you not know that this was an issue? Because I feel like we've been telling you. I feel like we've been saying this for a really long time, and you've decided to ignore our point of view. That is a choice that you made. You have to come to terms with that choice and decide how you want to move forward.

Winter Dunn (33:06):

Don't pretend like you were really the victim in this whole thing because you just, "I just didn't know." You knew. It didn't affect you.

Christena Pyle (33:14):

I feel like Winter, I think we need to team up so you can be the heart and I can be the science.

Winter Dunn (33:17):

I got you. I'll talk [crosstalk 00:33:17].

Fanshen Cox (33:17):

This is what Sista Brunch plus TIME'S UP is all about. That makes me so happy. Winter, it sounds to me like part of what we're saying is reparations. Reparations, reconciliation. It's not only about moving forward, because we know that's exactly what you want to do, but what can you do about all of the wrongs, the oppressions, that brought us to this moment?

Fanshen Cox (33:47):

As we're wrapping up this episode, I want to know what is in the future for us? What ways do you see Black women continuing to go beyond essentialist representations? How do you see that moving forward? And then is there a place for conversation around reparations, reconciliation, in the work that we do?

Christena Pyle (34:08):

I will say you've long heard... We first heard diversity, the term diversity, and then we heard diversity and inclusion. It got some kind of upgrade. Then, we're hearing diversity, equity and inclusion.

Fanshen Cox (34:21):

They going to keep adding letters.

Christena Pyle (34:22):

I'm like, "As long as they continue to give me opportunity, you can add all the letters." The equity piece is about... The diversity piece is about the representation in the room cognitively and racially and complexion and identity and gender. The inclusion piece is you can attract all the representation you want. If people don't feel included, like they have pathways for promotion, they can see themselves in leadership, then you're going to have them boomerang out the door.

Christena Pyle (34:52):

The equity piece is looking at people as individuals and giving them the tools they need to succeed and do the best work of their life. I wouldn't even call it a reparation, but that's where we don't need to be so dismissive of people. We need to give them the tools to be successful. When you've been running the same race with weights on your legs, there's an opportunity to see that potential and to see that talent and look into the future and pull that person with you.

Christena Pyle (35:18):

That doesn't make us compromise our meritocracy. You found the perfect word to trigger me. It doesn't make us compromise that. The future for Black women in leadership in business and in my space is bright because of what Black women... Black women are not a monolith, but we do come with a certain set of empathy, multi-tasking, ability to work through painful situations. We're not all the same, but those are modern-day leadership skills that we have innately. If people will just get out of the way, you will watch a Black woman lead.

Winter Dunn (35:57):

I literally just had a conversation with a friend of mine. We were talking about impostor syndrome amongst Black women in the workplace. We were literally saying... Not to generalize but for the most part, we have so many natural leadership skills that then get labeled as something negative when we implement them. But when someone who doesn't look like us behaves like us, shows up into the room literally like, "Oh, that Black woman, she's a boss. I'm going to do that, too," they are respected and received and given the praise.

Winter Dunn (36:27):

In a lot of ways, I'm just in a place right now moving forward. Our responsibility is to be our authenticity selves and to do our work. The truth is, I don't think we haven't been doing that. We haven't been given the space to do that and excel while doing that. When it comes to work, I'm really looking at them to go, "What work are you going to do?"

Winter Dunn (36:50):

Like you said, we've been running with weights. I need you to take the weights off. I'm going to keep running. I'm going to keep doing my thing because that's what I've been doing. That's all I know how to do. All we do is we win and we try-

Christena Pyle (37:05):

And we pull. We pull other people with us. We pull.

Winter Dunn (37:06):

... and we push and we fight just to be seen, just to breathe. We pull other people with us. That, I have no doubt that putting Black women in spaces to win... I'm going to have four girls behind me like, "All right, sis." The industries need to shift their thinking past just the part we tell the public, just past the part that makes you look like a good guy. I need you to do the work on the inside.

Winter Dunn (37:28):

I've had conversations where I'm like, "Hey, I just found out I'm getting paid less than my co-worker, but you give me all the responsibility because you trust me to handle it. I need you to compensate me for that trust. If you want me to go to the diversity meetings and to tell my perspective as a Black woman and do all that extra work, emotional work, then you need to compensate me for said work because you wouldn't ask anybody else to [crosstalk 00:37:50]."

Christena Pyle (37:50):

I need you to know that you are... It's like you're in the boardrooms. You are embedded right now in the... That's the conversation. That was a word. That was a whole word.

Winter Dunn (37:59):

Because I feel it. It's true. All my friends were like, "Time is up." [crosstalk 00:38:04]. It's up.

Fanshen Cox (38:06):

I don't know if you did that on purpose, but that was a perfect note. Your time's up in the best of ways. We are grateful to TIME'S UP, of course to Sista Brunch, to have you both together. I think one of my favorite things when we have two guests on episodes is when we know that y'all two are going to be in touch with each other and start to collaborate, kind of get even more stuff done. We're so glad to have you both. We support both of you so much. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Fanshen Cox (38:42):

Thank you for listening to Sista Brunch with me, Fanshen Cox. That was our conversation with Christena Pyle and Winter Dunn. Visit sistabrunch.com to find out more about them and their projects. Please don't forget to visit the timesupfoundation.org website. You can find out all about their work and how to follow them on social.

Fanshen Cox (39:01):

You can also follow us on Instagram at @sistabrunchpodcast. We're on Twitter, too, at @SistaBrunch and on Facebook, facebook.com/sistabrunchpodcast. Oh, and also please don't forget to subscribe, rate and review our show once you finish listening to this episode.

Fanshen Cox (39:21):

This episode was created in partnership with the TIME'S UP Foundation. Our show producer is Brittany Turner. Our executive producer is Christabel Nsiah-Buadi. We acknowledge that the land we record our podcast on is the original land of the Tongva people here on Los Angeles.

Fanshen Cox (39:38):

Can't wait to see you next time. Take care.