Shawn Pipkin: “It’s Okay Not to Know Everything.”
Episode Description:
We're back with a new season of truth-telling and celebrating with hosts Fanshen Cox and Anya Adams!
First up with our hosts is an original "Sista Brunch-er," Shawn Pipkin! Shawn is a 1st AD and director whose list of credits include Grey's Anatomy and Greenleaf. She's also a Directors Guild of America committee member.
Shawn talks about the movement that inspired our podcast, the importance of mentoring emerging black talent on the set and why it's good to be "the dumbest person in the room" (her words, not ours!). Then, take notes as she breaks down the growing trend of "calls" for diverse talent by employers.
Transcript:
Fanshen Cox (00:02):
(music)
Fanshen Cox (00:12):
Welcome back to Sista Brunch, with me, Fanshen Cox.
Anya Adams (00:15):
And Anya Adams. That's me. We're so glad to be back and talking to you about black women, plus working in the media, entertainment and the arts. Today's guest is the amazing, fabulous, gorgeous, energetic, smart, funny, and fantastic Shawn Pipkin. She's a first AD and now a director that's worked on shows like Big Shot on Disney+, Grey's Anatomy on ABC, Raising Dion on Netflix, and even owns Greenleaf. She also collaborated with me when I was transitioning to director on my little short film, Lemonade Mafia, way back in 2017. Shawn's been an active and outstanding member of the DGA, Directors Guild of America, for more than 15 years. And she's worked in the entertainment industry for over 20 years.
Fanshen Cox (01:08):
Shawn is also an OG Sista Bruncher. I think Shawn was doing Sista Brunch before Anya did Sista-
Anya Adams (01:15):
Before me.
Fanshen Cox (01:16):
... We're so excited to have you here to talk about what a first AD does and all things DGA and especially this new document that you've created and welcome sister.
Shawn Pipkin (01:27):
Thank you. Thank you guys. I'm so happy to be here.
Anya Adams (01:30):
Before we even get started. Can you tell us, because you are one of the few that I've come on so far, that actually was a part of Sista Brunch before we did this podcast and it got super huge, can you tell us a little bit about how it started for you and what it means to you?
Shawn Pipkin (01:45):
Yeah. How it started was Alicia Lewis, who is an original Sista Bruncher, who was my mentor or advisor in the DGA training program. And actually, she and Anya were the first two black women I met in LA the first week during orientation. Alicia was so great. As a mentor, she was amazing because she knew I didn't really have any friends in LA. I had a distant cousin that lived way South, never saw her. But she would always take me out to... When she was invited to a party, she would take me. When she was invited to a lunch or a brunch on the weekend, she would invite me. So she invited me into her world, that AD world, the film industry world. And then it was the Sista Brunch.
Shawn Pipkin (02:40):
I think one of the first ones was at Cheesecake Factory or something. There was all these fabulous black, beautiful, strong, smart, intelligent black women that did what I was aspiring to do. And I was like, "Oh my God, this is amazing." You know what I mean?
Fanshen Cox (02:58):
Yes.
Anya Adams (02:58):
Yes.
Shawn Pipkin (02:58):
I was like, "Oh my gosh!" And then it just grew and grew and grew. And then on your spot became the de defacto headquarters until you got a place [crosstalk 00:03:11]
Fanshen Cox (03:11):
Until I got a place, and then you started having it in my place.
Shawn Pipkin (03:14):
Yeah. But it's great.
Fanshen Cox (03:14):
Sean, you were at my first Sista Brunch and you, without question... I always talk about how I was blown away by all the women and how it was so helpful to me, because now I could push back against the, "We can't find anybody," excuse to hire, but you stood out as a leader, but also as this loving, nurturing presence that was so all about helping others. Really, I just remember that day. I'm fan girling. I'll just say it. I'm fan girling. One of the things we always start with is a person's journey.
Shawn Pipkin (03:58):
No way!
Fanshen Cox (03:59):
How did you end up here, and why?
Shawn Pipkin (04:02):
My journey is crazy, and I'm just going to go ahead and let every... When I tell this story, you guys are all going to know my age. I'm just going to say it. When I was in college, I interned my senior year in New York at NBC Sports, but it was NBC Sports publicity. I love sports. I'm a huge basketball fan, football. And so I interned my last year in college and then I went to school in Texas. And then right after I graduated, they offered me a job. And so it was at NBC Sports. And guys, I am not kidding you, my first two weeks on the job, I picked up the phone to someone from CBS asking, "Would NBC like to comment on the fact that OJ Simpson is a suspect in his ex-wife's murder?" And I literally was like, "Please hold."
Shawn Pipkin (04:59):
That was my first two weeks, because I was in... That happened. That was insane. I was like, "Here we go." That was it.
Fanshen Cox (05:10):
This is it.
Shawn Pipkin (05:12):
I worked there for three years. Then I left and got a job at publicity and promotion for All Star Cafe. If you guys don't remember that, that was the sports equivalent of Planet Hollywood. They had one in the New York and also Atlantic City, so I took the job in Atlantic City. Anyway, that company went down and my job dissolved. So I moved back to Texas with my family and I was like, "What are you going to do now?" And I said, "You know what? I'm going to pursue my dream. I've always wanted to get into film and television." I opened up the white pages, before Google, right?
Fanshen Cox (05:47):
Yeah.
Shawn Pipkin (05:47):
People know [crosstalk 00:05:48]
Fanshen Cox (05:48):
Some of the people know.
Shawn Pipkin (05:53):
I was like, "The Film commission." Because I knew about Film commissions just from being in New York. So I said, "Well, they'll know." Called the Film commission, Alfred Cervantes, who I'm still friends with today, answered the phone. I said, "Hey, I want to get into film production. I don't know anything about... I only have PR and promotion experience." He goes, "Send me your resume." I said, "But remember that I don't have experience." He goes, "It doesn't matter."
Shawn Pipkin (06:12):
Two weeks later, I got called to do a Kroger commercial, which is [inaudible 00:06:15]. And it was a late night shoot. They were shooting while the store was closed, so my call time was 2:00 AM. And I think that that's why I got it because-
Fanshen Cox (06:28):
That's how they knew nobody wanted [crosstalk 00:06:29]
Shawn Pipkin (06:29):
"No, she'll come out." And I was like, "Yes, I'm there." So just from meeting those people, I got more commercials, commercials, music videos, did some Scarface Geto Boys, you know?
Fanshen Cox (06:42):
Wow!
Anya Adams (06:42):
Wow!
Shawn Pipkin (06:43):
The first Rap-A-Lot records was based in Houston, which is where I'm from. And then-
Fanshen Cox (06:48):
Just to clarify, Shawn, you're doing PA work on this [crosstalk 00:06:51]
Shawn Pipkin (06:51):
Production assistant work. Sorry. Yes-
Fanshen Cox (06:53):
No that's okay.
Shawn Pipkin (06:53):
It's PA work.
Fanshen Cox (06:54):
So people know that is generally the path, right?
Shawn Pipkin (06:58):
Entry level, yeah. Entry level, bottom of the line, that's where you go to figure out what you want to do. Then from there, TV movies and then big features that came to Austin and Dallas, because my name got around like, "Hey, there's this girl in Houston. You all need to hire her." I was sleeping on college friend's couches for two years. And then one of the ADs on one of the shows was [inaudible 00:07:28] and he said, "You need to apply to this program. You were perfect for this program and you would succeed." And I was like, "I'll go ahead and do it." And I did. And then they brought me on to their next film, which was in Hawaii, Tears of the Sun. So I was a PA, traveled to Hawaii, put up in a hotel, the same hotel [crosstalk 00:07:53] per diem.
Fanshen Cox (07:53):
Shit.
Shawn Pipkin (07:54):
We had the weekends off. It was insane. I was taking scuba. It was great. But anyway, on that show, Tears of the Sun, it was when I got the word John Slessor called me when I was in the van going to set. He goes, "Well, congratulations." And I was like... So I have to leave that show. Left that show, went back to Houston, packed... I had two bags. I said, "If it doesn't fit in two bags, I'm not bringing it." Drove to LA and the rest is history.
Fanshen Cox (08:30):
This is Sista Brunch with Fanshen Cox and Anya Adams. Stay tuned for more of a conversation with first AD and director, Shawn Pipkin.
Anya Adams (08:54):
Welcome to Sista Brunch. I'm Anya, jumping right back into the discussion with first AD Shawn Pipkin.
Shawn Pipkin (09:02):
That was my journey. That's how I got into the trainee program, became an... And then it just... Well, Anya knows from there, you just meet all these people on the shows that continue to hire you. And I was really lucky.
Anya Adams (09:15):
Let's slow down for one second.
Shawn Pipkin (09:16):
Sorry.
Anya Adams (09:17):
You meet people everywhere you go, but if you don't know how to network and build to your next job, you ain't going to work, right?
Shawn Pipkin (09:25):
Yes.
Anya Adams (09:26):
First of all, you got to know your job, but second of all, you got to know how to network. And you were doing that really well beforehand. Anyway, it sounds like as a PA. You want to talk a little bit about that. It's so important in the sense [crosstalk 00:09:40]
Shawn Pipkin (09:40):
Sure. Well, first of all, you make a good impression. I tell people, because I learned this a long time ago, is that you don't need to kiss ass. You know what I mean? You don't need to find out who the producer is and... Just do your job and do nice and the right people will notice. And people noticed that I was a hustler. I was up for anything. I was the first one to volunteer to do stuff. I was always like, "Hey, can I try this? Can I try this?" Well, I asked first AD one day, "Can I run the set for one scene?" And he goes, "Not this scene, but I'll give you a scene." And eventually, he did let me run a whole scene.
Anya Adams (10:21):
That's awesome.
Shawn Pipkin (10:22):
So it's networking. And when you're done with the show, I just say always keep in contact with people. I did hear some great advice. A lot of people when they're not working, they call people up or email and say, "Hey, I was told when you're working is when you should reach out." So they know that you're always busy.
Anya Adams (10:41):
You're working.
Shawn Pipkin (10:44):
That's what I started doing. Like, "Hey, I'm on this show now. Just wanted to check in." So that they know you're busy, they know you're busy.
Fanshen Cox (10:50):
We've used that job, first AD, a lot because that's also how Anya came in, but I know there's some confusion. There certainly was on my part about the first... When I first heard it, I was like, "You're the assistant to the director?" But you both know that this is not the case. So will you just [crosstalk 00:11:07] you're like, "Absolutely [crosstalk 00:11:09]"
Shawn Pipkin (11:08):
Yes. You're like, "No."
Fanshen Cox (11:09):
And that's got to be frustrating. I would imagine you probably get some producers on set that don't really know because they just paid some money or knew somebody. But you want to talk about, with clarity, what the job looks like?
Shawn Pipkin (11:23):
Yes. Clarity. So the first assistant director is part of the management on the set. So we're the management on the set. The directors are the creative side of the Directors Guild of America. ADs, UPMs, stage managers, we're the management. So I say that we're the... I say, we're not the coach, we're more of the offensive coordinator if you want to talk about football. I use a lot of sports analogy, [crosstalk 00:11:56] just so you know. Because we have the game plan and we're like, "We're going to do this," but sometimes you have to call an audible, sometimes you got to suck people in, you know?
Fanshen Cox (12:07):
Yes.
Shawn Pipkin (12:08):
It's just things like that.
Fanshen Cox (12:11):
There are two specific times in the AD world, there's the prep time and there's the shooting time. Can you take us through a day of both?
Shawn Pipkin (12:20):
Yes. Prep is where it happens. That is where the film or the TV show gets made. That is where everybody... All the questions come up... If you have a script. That's a whole nother issue.
Fanshen Cox (12:35):
That's always nice.
Shawn Pipkin (12:39):
We have meetings, we have a concept meeting, which is usually the first meeting where everybody gets the script for the first time. Usually, the show runner, which is the head writer, the one ultimately responsible for the show creatively and financially says, "Well, this is what I was thinking." And everybody will ask, "Well, what kind of car are we thinking?" Stuff like that. Broad strokes. And then you just have all your department needs.
Fanshen Cox (13:02):
What's your responsibility in those meetings?
Shawn Pipkin (13:05):
Well, every show is different, but all my shows, the constant meetings been run by the first AD. But some shows, the show runner runs it because it's so abstract and that person is the one that really will have everybody's answers. It's a pre-production meeting where we just all figure out like, "Is this going to be a stunt? Who are we thinking about for casting? Who are we thinking about for this character this time?" "We want Denzel type." "Okay. No problem." Things like that. And then you have little departmental meetings like a prop meeting, hair and makeup meeting, background meeting. So the director and all the department heads can get the director one-on-one, you can discuss things. You have scouts.
Fanshen Cox (13:46):
And the first AD is present for all of those meetings?
Shawn Pipkin (13:49):
All of these meetings, because we have to absorb all the information and then we have to just disseminate it to make sure everybody knows.
Fanshen Cox (13:56):
Everybody knows.
Shawn Pipkin (13:57):
Yeah, everybody knows. And then we have the scouts where we pick locations. Some shows, well, I guess now in the new COVID world, you really don't have a choice of locations. It's just whatever the show says, "This is where we're shooting. You don't have a say." So tech scout is very important. That's when all the decisions have been made or they should have been made by the time you get to a tech scout. With a director it's like, "This is scene blah, blah, blah. We're going to look this way. We're going to have a car coming through. They're going to come through blah, blah, blah. We'll do coverage." And that's it. The main question is, "Well, what's safe?" Because everybody wants to know where can we put the trucks or whatever.
Shawn Pipkin (14:33):
And it's really good for the director to just really know and have those answers like, "Don't worry. We're not going to see this way, so trucks can go there." Or, "I'm also going to get a high wide shot, so remember, we're going to need the crane for that." Or, "I want to move that dumpster, make sure that dumpster is gone." That type of thing. So everybody knows. And then all the different departments, grip electric, art department construction, they go and do their little homework, take their measurements find out where the generator's going to be, transport, how far away base camp is going to be." Things like that. Now I know some shows are doing virtual tech scouts just because of COVID safety, which I think is pretty interesting. For me now, anything that's not in a group setting is great.
Fanshen Cox (15:16):
Can we just say, not to offend you, Anya, now that you have made the transition, but can we just say the first AD is the hardest working person on a set? Because that's what it seems like to me.
Shawn Pipkin (15:28):
In my opinion, it's the key second AD; they have the hardest job because they literally are the glue to everything because everybody comes to the key second AD... My job is hard, yes, but literally the key second AD, they will make you or break you. The key second AD gets all the information, puts it together and they disseminate it to the entire crew. They're dealing with the actors, they're dealing with producers [crosstalk 00:15:54] they may take on a lot.
Anya Adams (15:55):
I was just going to say in prep, one of the things Pip didn't say is that her job is to generate a schedule of the entire shoot. So from all those meetings she talked about, she creates a document that says, "On Monday, we're doing this." It should have all the information, but then the second AD is the one that actually executes it. So while Pip's on stage running the set, the second AD is always on the next day, which is very difficult when your boss is working and trying to focus on getting the day done, you know?
Shawn Pipkin (16:28):
Yes.
Anya Adams (16:28):
The second AD is taking all that shit.
Shawn Pipkin (16:31):
I love that I didn't mention the main job duty I have.
Fanshen Cox (16:37):
Well, but see, that's my point though. Y'all do a lot. We talk a lot about how you could potentially transition, let's say from a stage manager in theater into a first AD as an example. What is it like to run a set? What does that look like?
Shawn Pipkin (16:51):
To run a set effectively, you need a presence. You don't necessarily need to be loud. You know what I mean? But you just need to make sure you're heard and listened to. And it's all about information. That's what communication, letting everybody know what is going on, what's coming up next, if any changes. We start with a safety meeting, then we have private rehearsals with the cast, and it's all about literally anticipation. Anticipation, what's coming. And I tell my team, "I'm always three steps ahead, so you guys have to be five steps ahead of me." That's why I always tell them, it's like, "Okay, okay."
Shawn Pipkin (17:33):
And then you tell them that and they're on it. I love it when I ask a question and someone has the answer. It doesn't have to be like, "Let me find out. It just warms my heart." I'm just like, "Yes." You know what I mean? It's like, "Yes, they anticipated the question." We'll do the master. And then the director is like, "Let's move on."
Fanshen Cox (17:52):
Tell us what a master is.
Shawn Pipkin (17:54):
The master, usually it's the big wide. It's where you see everything in the scene.
Fanshen Cox (17:58):
So generally a director will start with that.
Shawn Pipkin (18:00):
Generally.
Fanshen Cox (18:01):
When that director starting with that, the first ADs are there making sure everybody is where they need to be?
Shawn Pipkin (18:08):
Yes, [crosstalk 00:18:10]
Anya Adams (18:11):
If there's background in that scene, you're responsible for them.
Shawn Pipkin (18:14):
Yes. The second ADs and I and the trainees, we'll set the background around the actors. And the thing is that the best background is the background that you don't notice, you know?
Fanshen Cox (18:28):
Yes. Real.
Shawn Pipkin (18:29):
That's the thing. But if there's someone that I'm constantly looking at, that's a problem, because that means the action or the writing or the acting isn't keeping my focus.
Fanshen Cox (18:39):
Hey, it's Fanshen, and you're listening to Sista Brunch. We'll be right back. We're back to our conversation with first AD and director, and definitely overall lovely human being, Shawn Pipkin. We wanted to know, when you worked on... Sorry for your loss, which is a Facebook Watch show. So there's one that's now... We're going to view it in a whole new way than we're used to viewing things just on a TV. Were there differences in your job and working for that Facebook Watch series?
Shawn Pipkin (19:26):
No, not really. It was the first half-hour drama that I'd ever worked on, because dramas are usually an hour. And because it was Facebook, there were no commercials. It was full 30 minutes we had to fill, instead of 22 minutes or 24 minutes. It wasn't a big studio that was in charge of it. It was a small indie studio called Big Beach. I think that Vida was their only other TV show. They usually were into film. So that was a big difference, because I'm used to working for Disney, Sony, these big studio corporations. If there's an issue, you go straight up there. But with an indie, if there's something wrong, the producer is like, "I'm the one you called." It was such a great show. I did it last summer. Literally to me it was like summer camp, and I don't mean that in a pejorative way. It was just so much fun. It was during the summer. It was great. It was light. It was a pleasure. It was just a pleasure to go to work.
Anya Adams (20:24):
I want to talk to you a little bit... You brought up COVID a couple of times, so let's transition to that right now and talk about, how is that affecting your work now? I know you just did a job, so I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about how that's affected your work.
Shawn Pipkin (20:39):
Yeah. It's definitely a whole new world. You know, Anya, We're leaders on the set, right?
Anya Adams (20:48):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shawn Pipkin (20:49):
BGA members. So, the crew just automatically comes to us just for everything. It was already a lot back in 2019, but now it's even more so because everybody is like... I'm telling you the key second AD's job has gotten harder, our job has gotten harder. I know that every show is going to be different because it's different personnel, different producers, everybody works differently. It is just a lot. I'm not even going to lie, just wearing a mask and a face shield for over 10 hours a day, that is a lot. And literally having to sneak into a corner to drink water, you know what I mean? You can't just swig, you just got to make sure no one's around. I was, even though it's not our responsibility ADs, but when people were too close, or when someone's mask slipped, I was right there. You know what I mean?
Shawn Pipkin (21:49):
And one of the things that I kept saying in safety meetings, Fanshen and Anya, is safety is everybody's responsibility. I say that on every set. It's everybody's responsibility. You shouldn't have to have someone tell you what you know is the right thing to do. So what I was always saying is, "Guys, since March, we've known about masks, we've known about socially distancing, physically distancing, you don't need someone to tell you that. Please. Police yourself. And if you see somebody, you don't have to... We created that environment where you could just go to somebody and say, 'Hey your nose is showing. Can you cover your...' You don't have to go to an AD or the COVID safety person." So that was one thing that I said, "Don't put it all on us. This is everybody."
Anya Adams (22:42):
It must've been really hard too, because you're... The director does, but also the AD a lot, but your job is to speak, is to communicate to the whole crew, is to make sure people know what's going on. And when you have a mask and a face shield, and you're trying to talk to people, that must've been really difficult.
Shawn Pipkin (22:59):
This is what I did; I asked for... We call it the Voice of God. I asked for the mic and speakers because I was like, "I am not losing my voice." That's what I did. I just used the speaker. But I will say that someone could be three feet from you or something and they're talking and you literally cannot hear what they are saying. So what I started doing, I started going back to back to people, looking we were spies [crosstalk 00:23:28] That's what we were doing because the thing is the facing, right?
Anya Adams (23:33):
Right, right.
Shawn Pipkin (23:35):
And it's also the amount of time you're close. It's okay if you're in front of somebody for two minutes and you leave, but you can't just stay close for over 15 minutes because that's when they say the viral overload happens. But the testing, that's a whole big thing. You literally have to have an AD team that is working with the COVID team with testing, scheduling it and saying, "Obviously the cash to make appear and costumes has to go through first, and then sitting..." When I came in, they put me to the front of the line for the-
Anya Adams (24:06):
Wait, you guys were tested every day?
Shawn Pipkin (24:07):
We shot for four days and we had rehearsals and stuff for two days. So for six days, I was tested four days. So out of those six days, I was tested four times.
Anya Adams (24:21):
Wow.
Fanshen Cox (24:22):
I know you're in a leadership position in the DGA, and I'm curious just for COVID, who determined the protocols for the DGA members? Was that something that the DGA said, "Here are the protocols that they will have to follow on site in order for you to be able to work on a set," or how did that work?
Shawn Pipkin (24:43):
Before the DGA and all the unions came up with the actual agreement, the contract for COVID, every show had to have their own personal agreement. So that's what we were going by. It was negotiated ahead of time. We had a COVID safety meeting every week. And then we had one specifically for makeup hair cast and sound and prop protocol, like, "How are we doing this?" Because my question was, "Cast comes in with masks and face shields, who's taking it from them?" And I just left it like that. "Who's doing that?" And then everybody's like, "That's so good. Oh shit."
Anya Adams (25:25):
[crosstalk 00:25:25] We hadn't thought about that.
Shawn Pipkin (25:26):
But other shows, I know another show where a friend of ours, she's a first AD. She was the one taking the personal PP. But what we did on this show, we had one of the COVID safety officers. I think he was the manager, I think that was his title. He was the one who took it from the cast and we had those little portable drawers, filing systems. So each actor had a label of a drawer, so they would put it in there. And then, I'd say, I was like, "Cast, PP on, please..." Before, when we were done, when we cut or when we were moving on, "Cast, PPE please." And so everybody stayed still till he came in and got it. And then boom, and then the cast left. I think that was a great system. And I think that really worked out with us.
Anya Adams (26:12):
Hi, it's Anya and you're listening to Sista Brunch. We'll be right back.
Fanshen Cox (26:31):
Welcome back to Sista Brunch. I'm Fanshen Cox, and we are jumping right back into this amazing conversation with first AD and director, Shawn Pipkin.
Anya Adams (26:40):
Fanshen, you just talked a little bit about leadership in the DGA, but I'm wondering, Pip, if you are comfortable about talking about being a black woman in this industry, talk a little bit about what leadership means to you and maybe some of the challenges you've had as a woman being a leader in this industry. And maybe some advice to people.
Shawn Pipkin (27:01):
Well, I have to say that now, my name is around, people know... This is going to sound so wild, but my reputation proceeds me now. You know what I mean?
Fanshen Cox (27:16):
Yes.
Anya Adams (27:16):
Yes, Shawn. Yes. [crosstalk 00:27:16]
Shawn Pipkin (27:16):
People know when they hear Pip or Pipkin, they know who I am.
Fanshen Cox (27:19):
Yes.
Anya Adams (27:20):
They know.
Shawn Pipkin (27:21):
But five years ago when I first was a first AD and people really looked at me like, "Who is this girl?" Because number one, yes, I'm a black woman, but also I don't look my age, so people think I'm some young kid. And I have to tell you, I think that is what really rubs people the wrong way, because they don't want some kid telling them what to do. You know what I mean?
Anya Adams (27:44):
Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (27:45):
Yeah.
Shawn Pipkin (27:46):
You think, "It's the black thing and the female thing," but a lot of it is like, "I don't want some kid, 20-something-year-old telling me what to do." And then when I start talking to people and then I'm like, "She good. Okay." [crosstalk 00:28:01] But you know what, I will say that people talk to you crazy. You wouldn't talk to a white man like that, or I will make a decision and it's always questioned, but yet a white man wouldn't be questioned if I made that decision. You know what I mean? And it's like, I'll say something, three minutes later, a man will say it and they'll be like, "That's great." And it's like, "I just said that."
Shawn Pipkin (28:29):
It used to really, really bother me when I first became a first AD, because I just thought that when I came a first AD everybody's going to listen to me and everything was going to be great and... And I was like, "Man, I was so wrong." I was like, "Oh my gosh." But it's experience, you know what I mean? It's just every show you realize, "This is how you have to play the game. You get more confidence." You know what I mean? This is what I tell everybody, if you act like you know what you're doing, they'll let you build...
Fanshen Cox (29:00):
People believe you.
Shawn Pipkin (29:01):
And you just carry yourself a certain way, then people are going to be like, "All right. She knows what she's doing." But I do love when... And I'm very happy that this doesn't happen too much now. But when I was first, first thing, having young black PAs come up to me, like, "You're the first black first AD I've ever worked with." And they're like, [crosstalk 00:29:29] "Oh my God." Literally I would well up. And they're like, "Oh my God, I will work with you any time, any time," you know?
Fanshen Cox (29:35):
Yes.
Anya Adams (29:37):
Yeah.
Shawn Pipkin (29:37):
It's very important that for people coming up in this business to see people that look us in these leadership positions, because they don't think it's attainable. And that's why I'm always talking to young people. I tell people, "You buy me a cup of coffee, I'll sit down and I will talk your ear off." I'm always-
Anya Adams (29:57):
You are really great at mentoring people.
Shawn Pipkin (29:59):
I'm really good. I love it because if we're not going to do it to people that are younger, that look us, who is? You know?
Anya Adams (30:07):
Yeah [crosstalk 00:30:07]
Shawn Pipkin (30:08):
I give people chances all the time. Usually I give you two chances. If it's a third time... Okay. But I'm always giving [crosstalk 00:30:18]
Anya Adams (30:19):
Let me throw this out here. This is something about PIP and those of you who listen to the podcast, Matt [Bola 00:30:26]. But when Bola was making her short film and got into trouble, the first person she called was Pip. And Pip stepped in and helped her. People know that Pip is going to help you, is going to find the time to give you advice, is going to find the time to sit down with you. And it's just so impressive, and I think a very good example of a true leader. I want you to expound a little bit more though on what a good leader, especially in this industry is, because I think you have so many of those qualities. You don't have to say, "I am," but if you want to, you can. But tell us a little bit more about that.
Shawn Pipkin (31:06):
I think one of the traits of a good leader is just being a good communicator. And a lot of people think, "Communicating goes, she just talks. She knows how to public speak or she knows how to write letters." No. Good part of communicating is also listening, because there's a lot of ADs out there where it's just one way. You have to listen to the people that you're working with. Listen to what they have to say. If they have an issue, listen to it. And then it's like, "Well, let's try to figure this out." You know what I mean?
Anya Adams (31:37):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shawn Pipkin (31:38):
People's like, "I have a problem." And I'm like, "No problems, only solutions. Let's go." So communication is a key, collaboration. Listen, I don't know everything. I know a lot, but I don't know everything.
Anya Adams (31:52):
You do.
Shawn Pipkin (31:52):
You know what I mean?
Anya Adams (31:52):
Yeah.
Shawn Pipkin (31:53):
And if I don't know something, I'm going to ask somebody, I will ask a key grip, "How do we do this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?" And then they're like, "That's easy. We got equipment for that." You know what I mean? Or I'll ask a prop person, "Hey, I need something. I don't know how to do this stuff." It's okay to not know everything, because one of my models too, and I know Anya you've heard me say this, you always want to be the dumbest person in the room. Because what does that mean? You're working with people that are smarter than you, that have been doing this a long time, and that you look up to them, that you know that if something goes down, they're going to figure it out, right?
Anya Adams (32:32):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shawn Pipkin (32:32):
They're going to figure it out. And also being a good leader is hiring people that know what they're doing, and letting them do that job. Letting them do it.
Anya Adams (32:39):
Say that. [crosstalk 00:32:41]
Shawn Pipkin (32:42):
Know what I mean?
Fanshen Cox (32:44):
Speaking of leadership also, you're in a leadership position at the DGA. Can you talk about DGA black expectations?
Anya Adams (32:52):
Yeah, tell us about that.
Shawn Pipkin (32:54):
You'll love it. [crosstalk 00:32:54] Yes, yes. Well, right now I'm the assistant director, unit production manager council. Each category has their own council. I'm an alternate for that council, and then I'm also an alternate for the national board. I have to tell you, they talk about having a seat at the table and that's what is so important because there are so many decisions that are being made that so many of our members either don't want to know about or don't care to know about. Because when I started asking questions about how things run in the DGA, I realized... I'm like, "Wait a minute, who's coming up with these rules? How was this..." You know what I mean? They're like, "Well, it's the council," or, "It's the board." And I was like, "Well, how do I get involved with that?"
Shawn Pipkin (33:41):
"One of the things," they said, "start showing up to the meetings. You have to let people see your face. So you can start showing up to the meetings and then you just start asking questions in the meetings." So all of these board members see, "That was a good question. Who was that again? What does she do?" I literally just started asking people... Anya and I are on the board of the Directors Guild Producer Training Program. You know how I got that job, Fanshen?
Fanshen Cox (34:06):
Mm-mm (negative).
Shawn Pipkin (34:07):
I went up to... The DGA president at the time was Taylor Hackford. And I said, "I want to be on the Directors Guild Producer Training Program. He goes, "Well, there's not an opening right now, but send me an email and I'll keep you in mind." And two years later, two years later, an opening came up and then I got on it.
Fanshen Cox (34:37):
Very importantly, you have a short film project that we should talk about.
Shawn Pipkin (34:42):
Yes. The film I directed called Mo. And let's see. It's on IMDB, Mo. The website is just mothefilm, if you guys want to check it out. We've been accepted to several film festivals.
Fanshen Cox (34:58):
Amazing.
Shawn Pipkin (34:59):
We just got accepted to Black Harvest Film Festival, which is in Chicago, the Gene Siskel Foundation. This will be the Chicago premier. Here in LA, we did best shots, we won. We did La Femme... Oh my God, there's so many more. Fayetteville, Arkansas. We got into [crosstalk 00:35:19] Arkansas. With Malta, Malta Film Festival, we won best short. I was like [crosstalk 00:35:28]
Anya Adams (35:27):
Amazing!
Fanshen Cox (35:29):
They should have flown you to Malta for that one, because that would have been your Hawaii experience come full circle.
Shawn Pipkin (35:34):
I know.
Fanshen Cox (35:35):
Malta's, Oh my God, that's amazing.
Shawn Pipkin (35:37):
I know. I know. But we're really excited because we're getting a lot of attention, which is great. I'm letting everybody know that I want to be a streaming episodic director. People know now, so I'm hoping-
Fanshen Cox (35:54):
Put that out there in the universe, sister.
Shawn Pipkin (35:57):
I know. And it's going to happen. And the thing is that once... If we just got the opportunities that some other people get, come on, we'd be everywhere excelling. We just don't get those opportunities. Some people don't want to take chances. I think that's changing, but I just hope it stays that way. I hope this isn't a fad or just for the time being, because we have stories to tell and we do damn good job, you know?
Fanshen Cox (36:29):
Yeah.
Shawn Pipkin (36:30):
We do.
Fanshen Cox (36:31):
And you're right, it's about giving chances.
Shawn Pipkin (36:33):
And opportunities, and also supporting people. And also letting people fail and not saying, "Well, that's it."
Fanshen Cox (36:42):
Oh my goodness, yes.
Shawn Pipkin (36:44):
You know what I mean? Letting people fail and letting them learn from those experiences and giving them another chance too. So, that's something that-
Fanshen Cox (36:51):
Shawn, truly this is everything I knew it was going to be having you on. And Anya, we have a pretty good track record for our guests.
Anya Adams (37:02):
Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (37:03):
I don't know if we can take all the credit for it, but I feel like our guests, they go on to do the things they said they were going to do on the pod.
Anya Adams (37:12):
They do. They do.
Fanshen Cox (37:12):
I'm just saying.
Anya Adams (37:13):
They do.
Fanshen Cox (37:16):
We're putting it out there.
Shawn Pipkin (37:17):
I like it.
Fanshen Cox (37:18):
You're going to be doing most of the work, but having us put it on there, we feel there's a thing.
Shawn Pipkin (37:24):
Well, I'm just ready for Anya to be a producer/director on the series, and to hire all of the assistants.
Fanshen Cox (37:30):
Love it.
Shawn Pipkin (37:30):
The big director.
Anya Adams (37:31):
That's what you're talking about. You lifted me into the trainee plan. Pull one up. And absolutely, that's what we need to do; to give each other opportunity and to really be a part of diversifying the people that are telling the stories, because it's been so monochromatic for so long.
Shawn Pipkin (37:56):
I know. And I think Fanshen said this earlier about... Or maybe it was you, Anya, about how there's always the whole, like, "We just can't find anybody. You've been lucky. You just can't..." So I just finished a West Wing special, right?
Anya Adams (38:11):
Yes.
Fanshen Cox (38:12):
Yes. Amazing.
Shawn Pipkin (38:12):
That's what my last thing I did. Anya, remember I asked you, I said... because Anya was a trainee on West Wing, and I said, "Anya, was the crew... Were there any people of color?" She's like...
Anya Adams (38:23):
No, nobody. Not a one.
Shawn Pipkin (38:25):
And I was like, "Okay." So I got hired, Thomas Schlamme; the DGA president, hired me. I was so excited. I never watched the show West Wing, but I knew it was such an iconic show, right?
Anya Adams (38:37):
Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (38:37):
Yeah.
Shawn Pipkin (38:37):
So I was like, "I'm going to do this thing." I said, "I'm going to try and make my team black and black, black, black." Right?
Anya Adams (38:44):
Yes.
Shawn Pipkin (38:46):
So three of the four ADs were black women. Three of the four were black women ADs. And then of the PAs we had, five were black, two were Asian Latino. We were everywhere.
Fanshen Cox (39:07):
That's, oh my God, amazing.
Shawn Pipkin (39:08):
That's how it happens.
Anya Adams (39:10):
You know what's so interesting, Pip? If we could just take a moment to talk about this, is there's a giant push to hire diverse ADs and crew right now, which is amazing, but it's also interesting that a lot of people, they're discovering they didn't do the work to elevate diverse groups. So they're coming to us asking us for help. And it's guys. I don't know, do you have any thoughts about that?
Shawn Pipkin (39:43):
[inaudible 00:39:43] I get called a lot just for shows. Like, "We need a first AD, blah, blah." But now, "We need women, we need people of color," so I'm really getting called. But then, that's stopped now that I know what's happening now, but now I'm getting so many calls about, "Hey, I want to diversify my team, and I'm just looking for..." And it's just like, wow! you know what I mean? It's like, you're only doing it because you're being forced to.
Shawn Pipkin (40:16):
And also another thing that really irks me is that people are coming and saying, "Hey, I'm trying to do this right thing..." They're only doing this because the studio was telling them to, because if this was your MO before, you would have already had [crosstalk 00:40:33] a full roster of people, right?
Female (40:36):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shawn Pipkin (40:36):
Now, that's coming down from the studio, now you're like, "I don't know anybody," right?
Female (40:44):
Right.
Shawn Pipkin (40:45):
Get out of your bubble, get out of your circle, meet other people that aren't from where you're from, they don't live near you, they don't look like you, don't have the same hair, the same religion, whatever. They don't speak the same languages. It really annoys me, I'm sorry.
Anya Adams (41:02):
I guess I brought it up because you hired four PAs. These are PAs, these are people that are entry level. That's what you should be doing all the time. You shouldn't just be hiring one type of person as your PA, you are responsible for helping grow this world just as much as we are as women of color, right?
Shawn Pipkin (41:20):
Yes.
Fanshen Cox (41:22):
We have to wrap on that note, but it is exactly why we exist. It is exactly that; that the more we are in the hiring positions, leadership positions, we know we have plenty of evidence that that's how these sets will change. And so keep putting us in these positions or we'll take them. Shawn, we love you. Thank you so, so much for being on [crosstalk 00:41:46]
Shawn Pipkin (41:46):
Thank you guys.
Fanshen Cox (41:50):
That was our conversation with Shawn Pipkin. Go to sistabrunch.com to find out more about her, her projects and where to follow her on social. And really, truly, thank you so much for listening to Sista Brunch with Anya Adams and me, Fanshen Cox. You can always follow us on Instagram @sistabrunchpodcast and Twitter, @sistabrunch, to see what TV shows and films we're watching, some really fun, hilarious, goofy behind the scenes, photos and sneak peaks of our newest episodes. On Facebook, we're at facebook.com/sistabrunchpodcast.
Fanshen Cox (42:31):
Hey, seriously, please, this is really helpful to us. Please don't forget to subscribe and rate and review and share our show. Tell your friends, tell your family, tell anybody that you know that wants to get into the film industry that this is the place to learn all about it. Our show producer is Brittany Turner, our executive producer is Christabel Nsiah-Buadi. We acknowledged that the land we record our podcast on is the original land of the Tongva people, for those of us in Los Angeles, and the Coast Salish, for Anya in Vancouver. See you all next time.
Fanshen Cox (43:05):
(music)