Bola Ogun: I Had To Stop Being An Assistant
Episode Description:
Bola Ogun is a first-generation Nigerian-American writer, director, and producer who made her directorial television debut last year on Ava Duvernay’s Queen Sugar. Since then she's directed episodes on other shows including LEGACIES, LUCIFER and SIREN. She’s participated in several training programs, like the AFI Directing Workshop for Women and the Warner Brothers Directors’ Workshop. One of her short films, Are We Good Parents? premiered at SXSW in 2018.
Transcript:
Anya (00:11):
Hey everyone, welcome back to Sista Brunch with me, Anya Adams and my awesome cohost, Fanshen Cox. If you haven't heard us before we talk to Black women plus working in media, entertainment, and the arts.
Anya (00:22):
And on this episode, we're talking to the fabulous Bola Ogun. She's a first generation Nigerian-American writer, director, and producer, who made her directorial television debut, last year on Ava DuVernay's Queen Sugar. Since then, she's directed other shows, like Legacies, God Friended Me, Lucifer, and Siren. You'll hear how she landed those shows during our conversation coming up. She's participated in several training programs, like AFI's Directing Workshop for Women. She was in the inaugural class of Ryan Murphy's HALF television mentoring program. She was a part of the Warner Brothers' Directors Workshop, and Robert Rodriguez's docuseries, Rebel Without a Crew. One of her short films, Are We Good Parents?, premiered at South by Southwest in 2018, which is an amazing feat.
Anya (01:10):
Fanshen and our EP, Christabel, and I talked to Bola last year, in my apartment, just before her Queen Sugar directing debut aired. We talked about her life as a PA, and how she found and created opportunities that got her where she is today. We're going to kick off the conversation with Fanshen asking Bola, what drew her to Hollywood in the first place.
Fanshen (01:30):
I would love to hear just generally, what was the catalyst for you becoming a director, at all?
Bola (01:37):
Yeah, I moved out here to act. I was a performer through [inaudible 00:01:46], through elementary and middle school, all those things, and was in high school plays. And I moved out here to act, but I started being a PA while I was in Dallas. That's where I'm born, born and raised in Dallas. And I started PAing on Prison Break and Friday Night Lights. Then I decided to finally make the jump. And then, I just kept working as a PA and realized, oh, I'm not doing anything creative, I'm just working. But I'm-
Anya (02:12):
So you were a PA on these shows to act? You were like, I want to... ?
Bola (02:16):
Well, I remember thinking... because all you hear is, it's all about who you know. Before you get to LA you just hear, it's all about who you know. And I was like, I don't know anybody, so I'd better get to knowing. And I just thought-
Anya (02:26):
So rule number one, get to know people?
Bola (02:28):
Yes. And so, I just figured [crosstalk 00:02:30]
Fanshen (02:30):
And actually doing stuff [crosstalk 00:02:30], when you talk about... because I think a lot of people don't even necessarily know how to become a PA. How did you do that?
Bola (02:38):
It was right before... Craigslist was just starting out.
Anya (02:43):
Oh my God, you're so old.
Fanshen (02:44):
... old. What?
Bola (02:47):
And I went onto the Texas Film Commission website, and I started making phone calls. I just was like, two weeks in a row just calling every day, all day, just trying to get... I heard Prison Break for their second season was coming to Dallas. So I was just trying to figure out how to get on that.
Anya (03:03):
Yeah, smart.
Bola (03:03):
And one of the calls... and everybody was very nice. Texas, everybody's very... they were just like, "Oh, aren't you sweet." And there was one number that I got that I kept calling, and it actually ended up being the production office for Walking Tall 2 and 3.
Fanshen (03:19):
Oh my God. Did those ever transpire?
Bola (03:22):
Yeah, there on DVD, there very...
Fanshen (03:23):
Oh, no way.
Anya (03:24):
Okay, something happened.
Bola (03:25):
Or VHS. I actually don't know.
Fanshen (03:29):
Walking Tall was a movie. It starred The Rock for the first one. Right?
Bola (03:34):
The original starred The Rock. The ones that I worked starred Kevin Sorbo.
Fanshen (03:36):
Right.
Bola (03:36):
Hercules.
Fanshen (03:37):
A little bit lesser in there.
Bola (03:39):
Hercules, Hercules.
Bola (03:40):
And I was very excited because I was getting to work with Hercules.
Anya (03:43):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's nice.
Bola (03:45):
But I called that office a couple of times, just looking for a specific person that I was told could help me get on Prison Break. So I kept calling back, and every one was like, "Oh, he's on set." And this was when it was like, "on set" sounded glamorous.
Anya (03:59):
So amazing.
Fanshen (03:59):
Ooh, I can't wait.
Bola (04:00):
And I'm like, "Woo, I can't wait." And so, I think it was like the fourth time I've called. And they were like, "Hey, so you've called here a couple times, and you seem really cool, we need a runner. Do you want to come and work for us?" So I was like, yes. Got in my car, drove way out, 45 minutes outside to town, went to the production office and became office intern PA for them, basically.
Fanshen (04:21):
So persistence, number two.
Anya (04:23):
100%. And I think that is a testament to your career overall, which we're going to talk about today anyway, but just like, you can't give up.
Fanshen (04:32):
Stick to it.
Bola (04:33):
I just kept going. Find your way in.
Anya (04:36):
Find you way in, yeah.
Bola (04:37):
And I did. I found my way in and luckily, because Dallas is such a small market, everybody know everybody. And when Prison Break did come into town and Walking Tall was done, a lot of people went from that show to Prison Break. So I ended up going there anyway because of all of my connections from that show. And then, I started working on Friday Night Lights. I drive down to Austin, the three hours or whatever, to work for a couple of days. And it was actually the best thing because I met Shawn Pipkin, and that was the best decision I made. Because I met Shawn, she's really cool, and I was still learning-
Anya (05:14):
Another black female.
Bola (05:15):
Another black female, which was a huge part of it.
Fanshen (05:18):
Were you one of the only black women on-
Bola (05:21):
On set? Oh yeah.
Fanshen (05:22):
... on these jobs? Okay. But you-
Bola (05:23):
Yeah, I think there was like one other black guy, who was another PA. But I remember it being-
Anya (05:31):
Very white male dominated.
Bola (05:33):
... quite monochromatic, as they would say. And yeah, and so going to Friday Night Lights and seeing Shawn, and I think, her seeing me, and that I was sort of... that's the thing that I think a lot of people don't realize is the whole... I think it was Spielberg who got dinged for this, the idea of, I gave [inaudible 00:05:54] this job because he reminded me of me. And a lot of people felt a certain type of way, they're like, you're closing the door to other people who don't look exactly like you. And that is an advantage, I don't think people realize is real. When people see someone else who reminds them of themself, it makes you want to help. It is not a bad thing. It is not...
Fanshen (06:13):
I think that it is a bad thing when it's a white man. There are plenty of you. I think that it needs to be more of, you look like me and I don't see a lot of you, and I'm going to help you because you look like me, and we need to see more of you out here.
Bola (06:32):
It's an unconscious bias for sure, and as long as people are aware of that, I think that they're starting to. Because a lot of mentors now in my career are white men. They do it specifically for that reason, it's like, I don't need you to look like me to understand that you are like me. And the people, the men who I have in [inaudible 00:06:52] very much understand that, and are the reason I've booked two more shows.
Fanshen (06:56):
Awesome, and yet they don't get a cookie for doing what they should have been doing.
Bola (06:59):
No.
Anya (06:59):
No.
Fanshen (07:02):
But it is still great, because-
Anya (07:03):
She's the hard ass, I'm the [inaudible 00:07:06].
Fanshen (07:05):
While they are in power, this is exactly what we need them to do.
Anya (07:09):
Yep.
Bola (07:10):
But yeah, Shawn is the reason I... when I moved out to LA, and I, of course, didn't know anybody. I had four contacts, and Shawn was one of them. And the first show I worked on was Get Smart, the first movie.
Anya (07:21):
Get Smart, that's amazing. I read a book before I moved to LA that said get as much experience as you can before you come to LA, so that when you come to LA, you're really in the game, versus just moving to LA or moving to New York or moving to Toronto or wherever the hub is for you, and trying to make your way. What do you think about that?
Bola (07:44):
Well, I agree with that because a lot of people just move and don't have any contacts. I think if you start somewhere else that the market is a little smaller, and there's more opportunity, especially... the thing that's happened now is LA used to have so many big movies. That's sort of what really help me get more jobs, as I was working on, [inaudible 00:08:04], that was a movie, Hancock, or whatever. All these big movies and they're not really here any more. So that means that there are less PA opportunities to get in. Now, people only have three or four PAs if that, and you want those to be experiences PAs. The thing about having 10, 15 PAs, because you need to lock up this whole street, is you get to now bring in less experienced people, who then get to expand their circle and their network, by meeting all these other folks.
Anya (08:36):
Hi, it's Anya, and you're listening to Sista Brunch. We'll be right back.
Fanshen (08:48):
Join our community. You can join us on Twitter, @sistabrunch, and also on Instagram, @sistabrunchpodcast.
Fanshen (08:58):
Welcome back to Sista Brunch. I'm Fanshen, and now back to our conversation.
Fanshen (09:03):
You had to really work your ass off on these sets? Because you were a black woman, you probably had to work differently, let's say, then the other folks on set. Do you want to talk about... because otherwise, you wouldn't have been able to keep getting hired?
Bola (09:21):
Yes.
Fanshen (09:21):
Probably.
Bola (09:22):
Yes. I think I did have to work really hard because it's just, being a PA is just so much harder than people think it is, in general.
Anya (09:35):
It's hard.
Bola (09:35):
And then, on top of that, you're just trying to make sure that people don't think... although, I got to say I think it worked for me, being I'm energetic and happy, but also I'll have a tone of like, we need to get this done. Because you're the lowest on the totem pole, but yet, you get to tell everybody what to do. So you very much have to have a presence that leads for you and commands respect. And it's something that I definitely take as a director now, that I don't really have to work that hard. If anything, I have to work harder just to make sure people understand, I'm not angry. Like, it's the angry black woman thing. [crosstalk 00:10:12]-
Anya (10:11):
Oh my God.
Bola (10:12):
... You're trying to sort of gas pedal, gas stop. It's you're balancing that act of how do I get my point across but also be nice about it. It's just this weird thing.
Fanshen (10:24):
I know.
Anya (10:25):
That's a really tough thing I find. For you, I'm sure, and I've experienced it too. Really assessing your audience, and your tribe, or whatever the group of people you're working with, and figuring out, how do I mediate myself so that I'm not intimidating as a Black woman? But also a leader, can you lead them? It's tough.
Bola (10:47):
It is. It is. And it's a balancing act that get easier. Being a part of the production department as you know as well, Anya, is you have to do it every day, and so, you get to have an advantage on my career as a director because I had to do it already in the department. Yeah, so...
Fanshen (11:07):
So talk about what department were you in? Oh, you mean [inaudible 00:11:11]?
Bola (11:10):
Being in the production department, being a PA, and then, occasionally getting non-union jobs as an [inaudible 00:11:18], workings of that, really having to work through tough situations and make sure that we make our days, that the director's happy, that everybody's... it's a balancing... That department is so interesting because everybody else gets to focus on their one thing that their department has to deal with. Camera only worries about camera. Hair, makeup only worry about hair, makeup. Costumes only worries costumes. Production has to know everybody, know everything, and know how to talk to people, know how to translate what someone else is saying very angrily, and still get it done. You're sort of this filter that has to happen. I can't tell you how many times somebody's like, "Locations needs to get light here now. Why isn't it already up?" And I'm like, "All right, I'll take care of it." "Locations, we really love a light over here. This would be great. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it." You have to take in what people say and just, blah, blah, blah, make it better.
Bola (12:15):
But yeah, it's an interesting journey. And as a PA, I saw that even if I had an agent or a manager, as a dark-skinned woman, the parts just weren't there.
Anya (12:26):
As an actress? Yeah.
Bola (12:27):
As an actress. [inaudible 00:12:28] because it's why I moved here, and so, I just noticed that, and it was really difficult. And luckily, for the rise of [inaudible 00:12:34], Lena Dunham, for all the things that come with Lena Dunham, I will say that what I did get inspired to do was, I needed to make my own work. I needed to make something, if I wanted to start being a creator. And so, I decided to make something. I decided to write a script. I had heard of the Directing Workshop for Women at AFI. AFI is the American Film Institute. It's a prestigious film school. And this program, it was doing wellish at the time, but there also wasn't this huge push for women directors. So I think that on top of Patty... I'm going to forget her... Patty West was the program director, when I got in. I wrote a script. I luckily got in. It's very difficult, very competitive.
Fanshen (13:22):
Go ahead. Well, you got in with the first script you wrote?
Bola (13:25):
With the first script, yeah.
Anya (13:26):
What was the name of the script?
Bola (13:28):
It was originally titled Sea Beneath the Surface, and it turned into The Water Phoenix, throughout the molding it, going through the program, trying to [inaudible 00:13:38] the story, trying to make it clear, all those things.
Anya (13:40):
People can watch that one now, right?
Bola (13:42):
Yeah, it's online.
Anya (13:43):
[inaudible 00:13:43] where we can watch it, right now.
Fanshen (13:43):
Wait, wait, before you go, I just want to ask you, so you said, you decided to create your own content, so that you could create parts for yourself. Right?
Bola (13:51):
Correct.
Fanshen (13:52):
So initially, you actually were creating this content, so that you could act in it?
Bola (13:56):
No, well in the program, you're not allowed to act in your own shorts, so it really was bigger than me. It was like, how do I create more parts that I'm not seen?
Anya (14:05):
Okay.
Fanshen (14:05):
Yes.
Bola (14:06):
I really love Sci-fi, fantasy stuff, and somehow we're always missing in those stories.
Anya (14:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Fanshen (14:12):
So ironic because you can't even be that creative. You have to stretch beyond what you understand about your reality right now. But that one you can't do, like Game of Thrones.
Bola (14:23):
Yeah.
Anya (14:23):
Really.
Bola (14:26):
[crosstalk 00:14:26] forget. I originally loved Game of Thrones, but I totally [crosstalk 00:14:28]. It's one of those things. It is.
Anya (14:34):
Oh no.
Fanshen (14:34):
Absolutely not. I'm sorry.
Bola (14:34):
But it's the reason why I wanted to do it, because if I make my Game of Thrones is going to be more inclusive in what we see in our world every single day. But that's what launched me into this movement. So I wasn't originally going to be in it. I was trying to get a top actress or something, and then, I kept wondering why I'd made this part... or my philosophy as a director was to make parts for dark-skinned women or for people of color in general. And here I was trying to find a famous white actress to play this mermaid. Because I thought it would be easier to get into film festivals, to get in attention.
Anya (15:15):
To get a [inaudible 00:15:16]. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bola (15:15):
Because that's what you see. It's like, oh this film isn't that great, but, hey, it's got this famous actor in it. And that's why they get [inaudible 00:15:21] all the great stuff.
Anya (15:21):
Which is super annoying, film festivals in general.
Bola (15:24):
It is. But I do think that it has changed. It's not so much about that, it's about the story. And I learned that, through my journey as a film maker, is that it's so much more than just, what famous people can you attach to it. But I eventually let that go and decided to do it myself because it just would have been easier. It's such a tough role. I think everybody likes the idea of being a mermaid. They don't know how much work goes into it because I got scuba diving lessons. I did free diving lessons. I'm a swimmer already. So I already felt comfortable under water, and I needed somebody who didn't look like they were holding their breath underwater. Because it's where this person grew up and know everything. And so, through the workshop, not only did I gain access to this network of other filmmakers, who were just ready to make art... At this point, I'd been a PA in LA, I think, for like five years, at that point. All my friends are professionals, they're not interested in working on my low-budget film, nobody how much I beg. I wasn't a person of influence where it was interesting or beneficial to them to come and help.
Bola (16:31):
So being in the film school area with those connections and those networks, it helped me tap into people who were willing to just create something, which to this day, I think is really valuable. I love that program. Out of all the programs I've done, it's probably the best.
Fanshen (16:50):
That is good to know.
Anya (16:51):
I was going to say just in a testament to Bola. We saw her tenacity at the start of her career. Bola like, couchedsurf for two years to pay for this short film. She sacrificed so much. She went to... my dog walker has a pool. We practice swimming with her tail. There was so much work. You convinced the guy from Splash to create the tail for the short film.
Fanshen (17:17):
Wow.
Anya (17:18):
There was just so much work that went into it and so much sacrifice. For me as a filmmaker, I'm so happy about where Bola is now, just seeing the amount of work that she put in. So I just want to underscore again, just how important it is to be fully dedicated and the amount of work that it takes to get places. Because even after you did Water Phoenix, it wasn't like, oh my God, here, come direct Queen Sugar. You still had three years of busting your ass.
Fanshen (17:45):
Yeah. I'm really glad you brought that up too, because I think something that's really important to think about is class. And that's why when you... especially within in that, within that category of women of color. I was going to actually go back ask you, in Texas, how were you able to live on a PA salary? [crosstalk 00:18:06] How were you able to do that?
Bola (18:08):
I was living at home. I was 19 when I started PAing. So I was still at home in Dallas, and only when I moved to LA... and even when I first started, because it was still really slow, I was working at Guess. So I would work at Guess on the weekends, if I already had a full week or PA work, maybe. So I was work two... there was a point where I was working seven days a week.
Anya (18:35):
Wow.
Bola (18:37):
And yeah, class is absolutely part of it because The Water Phoenix was an expensive project. I think that's part of the reason why AFI picked me, is because they were interested in doing this underwater, very ambitious short film. And I chose that short film because I wanted to showcase that I could do the effects, that I could do stunts, underwater stuff, like work with kids. There's so many times women get into these fancy film festivals, which typically program more drama or comedies, just sort of grounded things. They don't really do genre, that often, the big one, the ones that matter. And if you get into those, it's great, but then they turn around and they go, "Oh, you can't do genre because that's not what you do." And then, I'm like, "But that's what I love." So I decided to make my first project that. It took four years to finish that project, two to like three or four years. It took two full-blown crowd-funding campaigns, marginally run by myself. I got a grant from California Institute in Contemporary Arts, which was great. It basically paid for the aquarium for the day that we shot there.
Fanshen (19:46):
Great.
Bola (19:47):
But I put a whole portfolio together for them to look at, to show them that it was worth giving me some help. But that was me emailing, texting. Anybody who's done crowdfunding know, it's not easy. It's basically a full-time job.
Fanshen (20:01):
Yeah.
Anya (20:01):
Yeah.
Christabel (20:02):
Yeah.
Bola (20:02):
And it's hard because you have to swallow your pride, beg, ask, barter, everything.
Fanshen (20:09):
They say you have to ask the same person, I think, something like 12 times before they actually give to your campaign. It's [crosstalk 00:20:16]-
Anya (20:16):
Wow.
Fanshen (20:17):
... over and over. Yeah, it's tough. Yeah.
Bola (20:18):
It's really tough. I just talked to another friend who just did it, and it's so funny how people, they get. They are surprised. Because I think the outside idea is that, you post this up, and then people just give you money.
Anya (20:31):
Yeah.
Fanshen (20:32):
Of course, we love it.
Bola (20:34):
They just come out of no where. And they just give you all their money.
Fanshen (20:38):
Not actually all.
Bola (20:38):
And that's just not how it works.
Fanshen (20:41):
Hey, it's Fanshen, and you're listening to Sista Brunch. We'll be right back.
Anya (21:00):
And we're back. Let's get into our conversation with TV Director Bola Ogun.
Fanshen (21:06):
How did you get Queen Sugar?
Bola (21:09):
It's such a loaded question, and I feel that way for every Queen Sugar director because we all don't know.
Fanshen (21:15):
Oh, okay.
Anya (21:15):
Wow.
Bola (21:17):
It's sort of when you make stuff, your stuff... especially around the film festival circuit, I think Ava pays a lot of attention to who's getting into which festivals or what kind of work they're making, and how it can connects to people if it's different, if it's something that we haven't seen before. Which if you're a black woman making stuff, it's probably going to be stuff we've never seen before. And not even just black women. What I love about what she's doing is that it's not just black women. You look at the picture of all the directors she's brought in. It is so beautiful, just the variety of people there.
Fanshen (21:53):
Absolutely.
Bola (21:53):
And I luckily... Are We Good Parents? was my short film that went to South by Southwest last year. That was the one that [crosstalk 00:22:01]-
Fanshen (22:01):
Yes, let's talk about that a little bit because we just love that movie so much.
Anya (22:05):
It was so good.
Fanshen (22:06):
It was so good.
Bola (22:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (22:07):
Can I ask you a question?
Bola (22:07):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (22:07):
Was there anything that you realized you had in common? Because you don't know why, so if you [crosstalk 00:22:12]-
Anya (22:12):
Oh, as the director?
Fanshen (22:13):
Or once you were directed.
Speaker 5 (22:13):
directors. When you look at all the other sista directors, were you like, oh there's something about [crosstalk 00:22:20]?
Bola (22:19):
No, yes. So well, this just tie into it. So Are We Good Parents?, that was my second short film because I knew after The Water Phoenix, I needed to have another thing. People are going to need to see another thing. So I immediately, when in... even before we were finished with the VFX of The Water Phoenix, I was already trying to figure out how to do another short. And then, I came up with Are We Good Parents?, which came out of my relationship with my sister, who came out to me over the phone. She was gay, and I was surprised that it took her so long. I was like, "I don't know why you thought this was weird, and I'm appalled and I'm sad," and all these things. And then also, I can't make it about me because this is your moment. But also, "Why did you think I couldn't handle that?"
Fanshen (22:59):
Wow, yep.
Bola (23:00):
So those feelings I put into the short.
Fanshen (23:03):
Beautifully, yeah.
Bola (23:04):
And that one got into the dream festivals. It got into South by Southwest, which was amazing. And after that, it got into this, AT&T Shape Film Awards. So my film got chosen to do that, and one of the three films that they would show on stage. And that year's director... they usually choose a high-profile, prolific director. There was, I think, Catherine, yeah, Hardwicke one year, Patty Jenkins one year, and last year was Ava DuVernay. So I got to meet her for the first time [crosstalk 00:23:42]-
Fanshen (23:41):
And she saw it there, oh yes.
Bola (23:42):
... and she saw Are We Good Parents? There. Now, I didn't think I would get a chance on Queen Sugar because there is a commonality between the other directors for Queen Sugar. They all have these fancy films, feature films, that did the festival circuit. So she sort of just picked them back up or plucked them to do Queen Sugar. And I think she liked Are We Good Parents? enough to be like, "This is your chance, this is your moment."
Fanshen (24:10):
You don't think, you know she did.
Anya (24:11):
Yeah, for sure. For sure.
Fanshen (24:11):
She did. You know.
Bola (24:14):
But it's all hers, she makes the decision.
Fanshen (24:16):
And this is the beautiful thing about what she's doing, is that in these other programs, somebody would have said, "Bola, you could come shadow on season two, and maybe, we'll hook you up in season three."
Anya (24:28):
She's putting her money where her mouth is.
Fanshen (24:30):
Eva was like, "I'm hiring you. You don't have to follow anybody," and that is off of a short film. And I just think that's amazing, and such a model for how it has to happen.
Anya (24:41):
Totally.
Bola (24:41):
Yeah.
Fanshen (24:42):
And, by the way, and how they do it.
Bola (24:44):
Yeah, well-
Fanshen (24:44):
Like white men get hired off of less, much less.
Anya (24:48):
Totally, yes.
Bola (24:48):
You took the words right out of my mouth. Her philosophy is if the white boys can do it, basically. If it happens to the white boys, then yes, it can happen to us, and it should happen to us. And that's how she operates.
Anya (25:00):
Yes.
Fanshen (25:00):
So you get your first network television show, and then the shows just keep coming, you're just like, now you're in it?
Bola (25:08):
What else you got?
Anya (25:09):
Well-
Fanshen (25:12):
I'm saying this sarcastically because I think that, that's a misconception-
Bola (25:15):
Exactly, exactly.
Fanshen (25:15):
... is people like, oh, you break in, you got [inaudible 00:25:18], so you're going to get hired by everyone.
Anya (25:20):
It's [inaudible 00:25:20], it's always working.
Bola (25:20):
Yeah, and it just flows through. I got to say, I knew even on my journey to get my first one... I was so eager to get it because I knew it would take a year before I got the next one. Because that is typically... that's what it takes. I have so many friends who have gotten the first episode, and they haven't gotten a second episode. And the longer in between that, the harder it is, and it just is difficult. There are some Queen Sugar directors who haven't done another episode of a show.
Fanshen (25:46):
Wow. Wow.
Anya (25:47):
Why do you think you were able to continue? Did you start networking before you even did the Ava show?
Bola (25:52):
Yeah, I just-
Anya (25:52):
What you were doing? You were working at-
Christabel (25:54):
Come on Ms. Bola, we know.
Anya (25:56):
Now, right, like, what were you doing?
Christabel (26:01):
Tell our listeners so that they can be motivated to do what you do.
Fanshen (26:02):
Tell us what you were doing because you kind of got a... it's like Ava's publicist kind of thing, and you're really good at that. Something I really admire about you is how you utilize publicity to really move yourself forward in your career, but talk about that because-
Bola (26:15):
It is, you have to lay down a lot of roots. I think that the reason why one episode is not enough is they want to know that it's now a fluke. And the hard thing is that a lot of people don't know that Queen Sugar is a one and done situation. It's very rare for a director to repeat unless they're the producing director of that season. So she's purposely like, you get one and then you need to go off and do one. But then so many people are wanting to see that you've done two episodes of a show before they feel comfortable. That's really what it is, it's trying to get people comfortable and trust you with all their money and resources. And it's very difficult if they don't already know you, which is why so many [inaudible 00:27:02], editors, actors on the show that they're already on get a chance. Because they already have the trust of the show runners because they know the show.
Bola (27:08):
So how does a person who is a filmmaker, who wants to get out there and... ? You just keep doing the meetings.
Anya (27:14):
Right.
Bola (27:14):
You keep doing the meetings and you keep making your own stuff. I can't tell you how many meetings I got into, and they're like, "We really like that you make your own stuff." I'm like, "What kind of directors are you getting in here?" And it's people who haven't had to do that route-
Fanshen (27:27):
[inaudible 00:27:27] for the phone call and they... yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bola (27:31):
So making your own stuff, meeting people-
Fanshen (27:34):
Which is really... I will just plug our podcast for a second because that's literally the point of Sista Brunch. That is literally what you do, Anya, with Sista Brunch is, here's an opportunity to meet people who you can get together with and work with. And as you said with AFI, DWW, take advantage of those opportunities and just... And same thing as I'm in the fortunate position of having people pitch to me as a development executive. And I'm always like, I need to know that you're not desperate for this. I need to know that you will be fine when you walk out of this office. And even if I love you and love the material, I'm going to do everything I can for you. And still I need to know that you are going to be good.
Anya (28:18):
Right.
Fanshen (28:18):
And that's what you're doing, you're instilling that confidence in them about you because you're walking in like that. It's so awesome.
Bola (28:27):
It such a mind [inaudible 00:28:28], isn't it. It's like dating, you can't let the other person know I haven't dated in 19 years.
Fanshen (28:32):
That's right. That's right. Yeah, you just got to be like, I just got off this amazing [inaudible 00:28:38].
Anya (28:39):
[inaudible 00:28:39] they could look up online and be like, Oh, you haven't been dating. They can look it up.
Fanshen (28:43):
This is true. It's a different world. And Anya, you said this... Now, Anya, we're going to talk about you real quick because you admitted that you're an [inaudible 00:28:51], and I'm just going to say that like because Bola-
Anya (28:55):
Oh, I have an Apple phone.
Fanshen (28:56):
... part of, and I absolutely agree, being available on social media, and having a presence on social media, actually is meaningful.
Anya (29:04):
It is.
Bola (29:05):
Especially now.
Fanshen (29:05):
Especially Instagram, it's the stories. Look folks, if I watch your Instastory and see that you're good at graphics on your Instastory, good at shooting your Instastory, I'm already like, okay, this person knows what they're doing. So I'm just saying, for this young women that are listening and for those of us who are not as young as the young people listening, my friends you and me. If you are not IMDb, but you are active on Twitter, we can see that and read where you're coming from. You're modest. You're modest.
Bola (29:30):
Like, I'm doing this and I'm doing this. There's an award that I posted about at the top of the year, that I was like, it's some film festival, it's a new one, nobody's heard of it. The award was pretty cool though, and I took a picture of it. And I was like, nobody cares about this film festival because it's not a real thing, or it's not a thing, it's not a huge thing. But that got so much attention, I was shocked. I was like, y'all don't even know what this film festival is, but okay. It's just, people want to see that you're already doing it. And that's also part of... I will say the biggest and hardest thing that I did throughout my journey that people should know... because it's not easy. There's not the smooth transition for everybody, and I definitely wasn't one of those people. I had to stop... I was Rachel Bloom's assistant on Crazy Ex-Girlfriend for two seasons, and I stopped being her assistant because I had to stop being an assistant. I had to make a declaration that I was going to be a filmmaker, and that that was what I was going to do. Now, granted the year I did that was the hardest year because I didn't make a lot of money at all, but I was the most creative because I finished The Water Phoenix...
Anya (30:31):
Because you were hungry, you were like, I'm [inaudible 00:30:33]...
Bola (30:32):
Exactly.
Anya (30:33):
I'm going to do this. Yes.
Bola (30:34):
I did Are We Good Parents? I produced three projects, including the For Your Consideration for Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. I did a music video, I produced that, and a Vanity Fair video and a short film. And at the end of the year, I did Robert Rodriguez's Rebel Without a Crew. So that year, I was the most creative, but I made the least money that I'd ever made since I moved to LA. But if not for that year... that was 2017. If not for 2017, 2018 would not have been as amazing as it was. Because it was just like, bam, bam, bam. I was now making money based off of winning money for AT&T off of my art. And that launched everything.
Fanshen (31:33):
You're listening to Sista Brunch. We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back with more of our conversation with Bola Ogun.
Anya (31:53):
Welcome back to Sista Brunch. I'm Anya Adams. Now, let's get back to our conversation.
Anya (31:58):
Well, let's talk about the one element that we really want to talk about and that's money. Yes, money. [crosstalk 00:32:03] When you're a PA, how much do you make a... what's a PA rate?
Bola (32:08):
Well, it's not good.
Anya (32:08):
It's like?
Bola (32:10):
I did the calculations. I could work at two fast food restaurants and make about the same amount of money that I was making and the hours that I was working on set. And what's annoying or what's hard is that being on set makes you feel like you're closer to your dreams, you're closer to the jobs you want, you're closer to everything, it's just right there. But really it's kind of keeping you away from all that stuff. So I say, I always tell people, do it for a little bit, maybe a year tops, and then, leave and do some boring job that doesn't need your mind and use your mind for your creative stuff.
Fanshen (32:41):
Cool.
Anya (32:41):
I like that.
Bola (32:43):
And then keep your overhead low. That was the biggest change for me about... when I finished couchsurfing. I couch surfed for a year, while doing the DWW program, trying to finish The Water Phoenix. So I couchsurfed for a year, I didn't have a car for two years, and I decided not to get one because I wanted to focus... I didn't want to have to take jobs. Anything you can do to make your lifestyle possible to not have to take jobs, is the best thing for you. If you can get a cash car that doesn't require payment every month, if you can be in house with six other people, do it. You have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable because unless you do that you're not going to move forward in what you want to do.
Bola (33:28):
Well, for PAs, I'll just say you make, I think... the lowest pay that I've gotten that was union, a union show, was like 125.
Fanshen (33:38):
A day?
Anya (33:39):
A day?
Fanshen (33:39):
So like every day. So $125 for day. [inaudible 00:33:41] yes.
Bola (33:40):
Yeah, for 12 hours, if not for 16 hours of work.
Fanshen (33:47):
And you really can't negotiate the pay rate [inaudible 00:33:50]?
Bola (33:49):
Not really. Towards the end of my career, I could, maybe negotiate a little bit, but you're never going to get more. The highest I got paid was 155, and that was because I was the only PA on True Blood, and it was the first season.
Fanshen (34:04):
But actually, that is a really good point. So you did get to a point where you felt comfortable asking for more-
Bola (34:10):
... ish.
Fanshen (34:11):
... as a PA? Ish. I mean enough to get something. Right?
Bola (34:13):
Yeah.
Fanshen (34:13):
And I think that's a really good point, is that it is okay. Once you've proven yourself, then it is okay to ask. It's okay and it's not abnormal to ask?
Bola (34:23):
Well at that point, I was basically a non-union AD. So the people knew when they were hiring me, they weren't just hiring...
Anya (34:32):
Someone who's going to lock-up, that someone who understood paper work, who knew how to run Basecamp, which is where all the actors make appearance, or could be on set and take your background. They could just say Bola do this, and you would be able to do it.
Bola (34:43):
Exactly, they didn't have to worry about it. So [crosstalk 00:34:46].
Anya (34:45):
So you could work your way up to pricing yourself a little higher.
Bola (34:48):
Exactly, yeah.
Anya (34:50):
So now in television, so working in the hour long space, network says... or network and streaming are different, so there's a lower and a higher price, or streaming is a little bit less, right?
Bola (35:03):
Well, yeah. Cable's a little bit less, I think that's around 38ish, like 40000 for an episode. And then network, like a CBS, ABC, NBC, those will pay about close to 50.
Anya (35:18):
Right. And that's a one hour show. For a half-hour show, it's like 36 an episode.
Bola (35:21):
Yes. Yes.
Anya (35:22):
And then, you get residuals from that.
Bola (35:24):
Yes.
Anya (35:27):
And it begins to be nice.
Bola (35:29):
Yes, it begins to be nice. So it's funny because it's like, my first pay check really just went to debt.
Bola (35:36):
That's all I did. That's all that happened.
Anya (35:39):
So you'll have debt, and then also for the DGA [crosstalk 00:35:42]-
Bola (35:42):
Oh yeah, DGA.
Fanshen (35:43):
Do you want to talk about that a little bit?
Anya (35:45):
So were you in the DGA when you did [A List 00:35:47]?
Bola (35:47):
No, no.
Anya (35:47):
No. Okay.
Bola (35:48):
I got in the DGA because of Queen Sugar. So I did [inaudible 00:35:51].
Anya (35:51):
Right. Awesome.
Fanshen (35:51):
Congratulations.
Anya (35:54):
Yeah, they really cool. You have to go back.
Bola (35:56):
They do offer payment plans. So-
Anya (35:58):
Did you ask?
Bola (35:58):
Yeah, so you can ask for it, and they can price it out. But to join is about $12000 as a director.
Anya (36:06):
That's a lot of F-ing money.
Fanshen (36:10):
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Christabel (36:13):
Is this the first time you [crosstalk 00:36:13] this?
Anya (36:13):
You didn't know that?
Fanshen (36:13):
I had no idea. Wait, really, did you say 12000?
Anya (36:18):
Yeah, 12000.
Fanshen (36:18):
So what do you get for giving them $12000?
Bola (36:22):
Well, Anya would know more than I, but I know that the healthcare's...
Fanshen (36:26):
Anya, what the hell? You would [inaudible 00:36:27], pay for your own healthcare.
Bola (36:28):
The healthcare is really good.
Fanshen (36:30):
Is it? I mean my goodness.
Speaker 5 (36:32):
[inaudible 00:36:32] Anya's face.
Anya (36:34):
Well, here's the thing, here's the thing. Bola had to take that chunk out of her [inaudible 00:36:38]. It was 12 grand, please join. As an AD, I started as a second, second, and when I started for the second [inaudible 00:36:47] entrance, it was 3000. And then, when I became a first, it was an extra 2000.
Bola (36:50):
You paid a little bit more.
Anya (36:51):
And I did it in increments, so when I became a director, I paid $900. So I was in [crosstalk 00:36:55]-
Fanshen (36:54):
But you did still pay all of that?
Anya (36:58):
Yeah, I paid a little less than what hers is because it goes up every year too. But essentially what you're getting is, being in the guild, you're open now to do all of these projects that non-union people aren't able to do. So now, Bola can say, "Look HBO, I'm going to come and direct for you," and they're like, "Fine." There's no issue. If you're a non-union director, you need to be in the guild because those are requirements for all the networks and the streaming services for programs that they're implementing. And you do get health insurance, and there's a lot of things that go with it, that are great.
Bola (37:32):
There's union protection. There's union protection and that really helps. And again, that's another network place, where you can talk to people, and everybody has conversations about what's going on in our industry. So... yeah.
Anya (37:47):
And so, what's coming up for you?
Fanshen (37:49):
You're in the Warner Brothers Directing Program and the Director Program, is that right?
Bola (37:54):
Yes. Yes. And through the Warner Brothers one... because it's one of the few. It's only that one and the NBC Female Forward that you get an episode of a show, if you get in. So I'm doing Legacies in two, three months.
Fanshen (38:06):
Yay.
Anya (38:07):
Where is Legacies?
Bola (38:08):
It's in Atlanta.
Anya (38:09):
Oh cool. Do you have anything else after that?
Bola (38:11):
Yes, right after Legacies, I'm going to Siren. So it paid off doing a mermaid short because now, I'm doing a mermaid show.
Anya (38:19):
Oh because it's a mermaid show. Cool.
Fanshen (38:20):
Yes.
Bola (38:21):
So Siren came because I... that's another thing where you really plant seeds. I think people have to get used to, I can't reiterate this enough, you got to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Because you're just going to be uncomfortable a lot until things start to happen. I started meeting with Freeform, like three, four years ago, while I was making not Queen Sugar, The Water Phoenix. And I had heard about them doing this mermaid show. So I got in to talk to the head of Freeform, who's now the head of ABC. But that conversation, it was sort of a meet you, get to know you, general meetings, what they called water bottle tours. You'll here people say, I went on the water bottle tour, and that's what they're talking about because they fell like, usually you only walk away with a water bottle. That's the [crosstalk 00:39:11].
Fanshen (39:11):
Love it, okay, okay.
Bola (39:12):
But these meetings are important because what you need to do, is you need to meet everybody in the current department, so that they can see who you are, how you are in the room. And they can see your work. That way when they're staffing shows, and somebody brings your name up, they can go, "Oh, I know that person," like they've met you. It really is to get them to meet you, and at the moment it feels like nothing is happening, but really you're setting down seeds and roots that are going to come back later. So that's when, now it's easier for either my agent or whomever to pitch me to a show, like Siren, because they're like, we already know her, we love her. Literally, I walked out of the room, they're like, "Well, Freeform loves you, so cool, we got you.
Fanshen (39:52):
Right.
Anya (39:52):
Yes, that's awesome.
Fanshen (39:54):
So general, some people love that one in general. Right?
Bola (39:55):
Yeah, general.
Fanshen (39:58):
Not going in with a specific job in mind, but letting them get to know you. And yes, say yes to the bottle of water because it's also a water bottle meeting.
Bola (40:05):
Yes.
Bola (40:08):
Say yes to the water bottle and just say yes to being your... it's such a corny thing, but be yourself, your fabulous self because that's what they're going to remember when you leave the room. If they really like being around you, they're going to remember you.
Fanshen (40:18):
Right, love it. Thank you. Yay, we love you.
Bola (40:22):
[crosstalk 00:40:22], thank you so much for coming today.
Fanshen (40:24):
Yeah, you're amazing, we're so glad that you told your story and that you're inspiring. You will inspire our listeners, so amazing.
Anya (40:32):
Yes, keep doing it, keep going. Yes.
Fanshen (40:36):
Yes. Our big thanks to our Sista Brunch sista. That really is how we met her at Sista Brunch. Well, at least that how I met her at Anya's Sista Brunch when she hosted. So thank you again so much to the writer, producer, and director Bola Ogun for joining us on Sista Brunch. Go to Sistabrunch.com to find out more about Bola and where you can watch her, all of her great programming that's she's had on and her shorts. We'll also have a link to her website there. Thank you for listening to Sista Brunch with Anya Adams and me, Fanshen Cox. We hope you enjoyed the show.
Fanshen (41:12):
And look out for our next episode with Elon Washington. She works at Jordan Peele's Monkeypaw Productions, and Elon is also the founder of Black Film Allegiance. You don't want to miss it. You can follow us on Instagram @sistabrunchpodcast to find out what's caught our attention lately, what are we talking about at Sista Brunch. And you can watch our bi-monthly Sista Brunch [inaudible 00:41:35]. That's where media pros share there tips with us about how to break into the media. And we weigh in on all the current events as well. We're also on Twitter, @sistabrunch, on Facebook and we're getting up there on our likes. So join the ranks of the likes on Facebook. If you're still on there, we are too. Oh and hey, please don't forget to subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your podcasts.
Fanshen (42:03):
Our show producer is Brittany Turner and Christabel Nsiah-Buadi is our executive producer. See you next time.
Fanshen (42:11):
This show was recorded on land traditionally belonging to the [inaudible 00:42:16] people.