TIME'S UP X SISTA BRUNCH LIMITED SERIES - Latasha Gillespie and Miki Woodard: Taking Risks, Playing to Win
Episode Description:
In our last episode of the series with TIME'S UP Foundation, Amazon Studios Global Head of Diversity Latasha Gillespie and Head of Good Robot at Bad Robot Miki Woodard talk with Fanshen and Anya about the evolution of diversity, equity, and inclusion work, bringing up the next generation of executives and talent, why risk-taking pays off, and the limitless power of listening to yourself.
Transcript:
Fanshen Cox (00:11):
Welcome back to Sista Brunch with me Fanshen Cox.
Anya Adams (00:15):
And me Anya Adams. We're back and talking to you about Black women plus working in media entertainment and the arts. Today's show is our fifth and last.
Fanshen Cox (00:24):
No.
Anya Adams (00:24):
Episode of our Times Up series on safety, equity, and power in Hollywood. We'll be asking how we can move forward as Black women in Hollywood and the media at large, ways to keep up momentum and push for change and what the challenges ahead might be.
Fanshen Cox (00:40):
Yes, and we have two amazing guests here today who have been running things, really dedicated to doing this. And we're both just so excited to have you on. So we've got Latasha Gillespie, she's head of Global DEI at Amazon Studios, and Miki Woodard, head of Good Robot at Bad Robot Productions. And we're going to get into what that actually means here in a second. But at first I'll tell you a little bit more about Latasha. Latasha Gillespie has over 20 years of experience with Fortune 50 organizations leading successful global strategic initiatives and is currently the global head of Diversity at Amazon Studios. Also at IMDB and Prime Video. She is credited for the company's participation in the HBCU Partnership Challenge and leading the creation of Amazon's first Conversations on Race and Ethnicity CORE Conference. Black Enterprise Magazine named Latasha one of the 2019 most powerful women in corporate diversity.
Anya Adams (01:43):
Okay.
Fanshen Cox (01:43):
Yes. And she is a 2018 Ebony Magazine Power 100 honoree.
Anya Adams (01:49):
I got to talk about Miki Woodard now though because this woman is also amazing. So Miki leads Corporate Social Impact, Employee Engagement, Diversity and Cultural Initiatives at Bad Robot Productions. She's a senior advisor of the Katie McGrath and JJ Abrams Family Foundation, and she helps manage the family's philanthropic portfolio. She also serves on the board of several charitable organizations, including the California Advisory Board of The trust for Public Land and is the current board chair of the nonprofit Community Coalition. So we're so glad to have you both here. Thank you. Welcome. Welcome.
Miki Woodard (02:26):
Thank you.
Fanshen Cox (02:27):
So glad to have you. And we always like to start off our regular episodes with kind of just hearing how our guests got to where they got to because we really want to be inspiring for younger women maybe or women who are transitioning in their careers to kind of become what you all are doing. So Miki, do you want to start? How did you end up doing what you do?
Anya Adams (02:48):
Yes.
Miki Woodard (02:49):
A very crooked path.
Anya Adams (02:52):
Those are the best.
Miki Woodard (02:55):
When I talk to young women, I always tell them, "Looking back, it makes sense. Going forward, it didn't always." And you have to be open to the opportunity that you might not have thought about because that's really what guided me this whole way through. I started doing this work over 20 years ago, very long time at a talent agency, working with their clients. But here's the ironic part of that, one of their clients was JJ Abrams and Katie McGrath.
Anya Adams (03:25):
No!
Fanshen Cox (03:26):
Whoa!Whoa!
Anya Adams (03:27):
Wow!
Miki Woodard (03:28):
So that tells you that sometimes this path is just made for you. And I've just been really, really fortunate to be able to tap into that. And also about the importance of networking and keeping up your network. I always talk to young women about that too. How are you making sure that you stay connected to the people in your life that matter? So started out at CAA, went over and did some work with influencers like Kanye and Dr. Phil and others, went back to the corporate side and did this for JCPenney. And now I have this amazing opportunity to lead this work for Bad Robot and also for the McGrath Family Foundation along with my colleague who actually runs that entity. So I'm grateful to be here.
Anya Adams (04:16):
That's awesome.
Fanshen Cox (04:16):
Oh my goodness. That's that don't burn your bridges you all, don't burn your bridges. And we've said many times on this podcast, that when you get opportunities, you need to kick ass. You need to be somebody that other people ask about later. So, oh my goodness, you started those relationships that long ago.
Anya Adams (04:35):
You need to also call the crowd and see who you like and who you want to be connected to.
Fanshen Cox (04:39):
For sure.
Anya Adams (04:39):
Because when you find those people before they've exploded you know their true self.
Fanshen Cox (04:44):
Amen.
Anya Adams (04:45):
What about you Latasha?
Latasha Gillespie (04:47):
Just like Miki also a very crooked path. The only thing that was straight about my path was that it always started with praying for the yes or the yuck. So I actually started off in finance. My background is finance. I started off in the manufacturing industry. So very different world than the one I'm currently sitting in. But through that process, every time someone asked me to take on a new opportunity, the first thing I would do was pray for the yes or the yuck, "God, is this for me or is it not for me?" Because I always want to be in the right place at the right time and never in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Latasha Gillespie (05:19):
And if it was a yes, even if it scared me, which most of the time it did, learning to lean into the yes. Learning to lean into the things that absolutely terrified me, that I was not qualified for it, that I did not have experience in, but it was in those moments is when I learned a lot of new things. It's in those moments when I learned a lot about myself, it's in those moments when I learned how to translate fungible skills that worked across multiple industries and multiple countries, and it just served me well.
Fanshen Cox (05:47):
Latasha, what were some things that you did to get yourself comfortable with leaning into the yes?
Latasha Gillespie (05:53):
Well, the interesting thing was, and I really do think it has a lot to do with my faith because I always believe that God has a bigger vision for me than I could have for myself. And I always believe that He knows exactly the path to get there. So sometimes when it's uncomfortable for me, I know it's because there's stretch happening, there's growth happening. And if I've already jumped into something because I'm chasing purpose and I really believe it's about next [inaudible 00:06:17], then I know He's got me.
Anya Adams (06:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Miki, can you talk a little bit about you leading social impact, employee engagement, like all of these elements at Bad Robot. Can you talk a little bit about how the recent years affected your job? COVID-19 is probably one that's obviously impacted all of us, but also the Black Lives Matter movement and how it's really kind of been a pervasive kind of experience for all of us, but how it might've changed your life.
Miki Woodard (06:45):
Absolutely. And I think part of it is, beyond or in addition to what it does to our work, it's how we all change personally. That's been the biggest lesson for me. That no longer are these things separate. It was so easy for me to compartmentalize my day from my night, my work from my home, and now everything's in the same space and everybody sees it. And so when you are a Black woman leading this work, it means that you are working to help people get through the trauma that you're also experiencing. And so what I'm grateful for is that I work at an organization where they've been really thoughtful about that, not just for me, but given me the platform and the support that we need to help all of our employees grapple with a very new reality.
Miki Woodard (07:42):
And so our work has expanded from social impact, from really looking at what can we do for our community and what can we do for our neighbors, to really thinking about who are we? Who are we together? Who are we apart? How do we learn more about each other? How do we support each other? How do we see each other differently? How do we respect each other?
Miki Woodard (08:03):
It's been all of those lessons that have translated into programming, and support, and all kinds of very specific activations but the core of it really is about humanity and how the last year has really taught us to start there and then think about how that applies to work.
Anya Adams (08:27):
Hi, it's Anya and you're listening to Sista Brunch. Stay tuned, we'll be right back
Fanshen Cox (08:51):
We're back. Here's more of our conversation with DEI and social impact leaders, Latasha Gillespie, and Miki Woodard.
Fanshen Cox (08:59):
I got to bring this up because I was having this conversation, doing some social impact work with a theater and the directors of the theater are two white women. And we were talking about how for the last year, well-intentioned white people have gotten a little brow-beaten and not to say they didn't deserve it but have gotten a whole lot of focus on like, "Stop talking, be about it," and I feel like we are now moving into a period where maybe there were times during that, where we were like, "You know what? We don't need you at all," and I feel like we might be leaning into the period of, "We got to all work this out together and now we got to figure out how." And I think, Miki, when I think about what you do, because you are working with two very well-known white folks with money, but who have chosen to do the work with that money. And so are you seeing that kind of shift in any ways or has that always been the case there, that they've always been about doing the work? Did this last year change things drastically?
Miki Woodard (10:01):
I think both things are true. They have always been about doing the work and there's been a lot more give and take in the last year. That's that humanity part where we're really seeing where our starting points are as you connect to all of this. And also, where are the opportunities? Where are the gaps? There are gaps in every single organization, whether that's internally or externally. And this is the time as you said to be about it.
Miki Woodard (10:29):
There is no time for excuses. You have to be unequivocal and have your language, and your programming, and your culture, and your mission, and your values. They have to align. And there's a lot of work behind each one of those words.
Fanshen Cox (10:45):
Latasha, curious about you too because look, if any of us work for a major studio or a major production company, we're working directly with white folks with power. Have you seen shifts?
Latasha Gillespie (10:55):
Yeah. The interesting thing was last year was not a surprise to most Black people and people of color. These are things we've lived with our entire lives. When you mentioned in my bio about the CORE Conference, that was a conference I started in like 2017, right?
Fanshen Cox (11:10):
Right.
Latasha Gillespie (11:10):
Because we knew these things were happening in these communities and people couldn't share that fragility of life when they swiped into our conference. They carried that with them in everything that they did, which is why I felt like there needed to be a conversation about a messy topic at work. Because it was impacting the way people do work.
Fanshen Cox (11:28):
Yes.
Latasha Gillespie (11:28):
And I think what this past year has done with a pandemic, and a murder, and a global uprising, it has caused all of us to be still just a minute. Right?
Anya Adams (11:40):
Right.
Latasha Gillespie (11:41):
Because if this isn't new, how did we all miss it before? Because we were off doing our own things. But the pandemic forced us all to be still for a minute and witness this together. And so it's funny and I agree with Miki so much when she talks about the humanity part, because when people say, "The Black community must be hurting over this," and I say, "How does a human being look at this and not [crosstalk 00:12:02]?"
Fanshen Cox (12:02):
Right.
Latasha Gillespie (12:03):
Regardless of race. This is not a Black community problem, this is a humanity problem. We should all feel that way. We should all have those sentiments when we see the anti-Asian hate. We should all be feeling [inaudible 00:12:14], right?
Anya Adams (12:14):
Right.
Latasha Gillespie (12:15):
And so I think what this year, this past year has allowed us to do is be very intentional in language and to call a thing a thing. That we no longer have to dance around and pacify and sugarcoat things, we can actually call things what they are. We can talk about oppression as it shows up on screen, we can talk about oppression porn. We can talk about how these stereotypes and tropes are actually hurting our ability to see each other as human beings. We can call a thing a thing. And we can also say, "Guess what? It's not okay for you to say George Floyd died because he didn't." He didn't have cancer, he wasn't 100 years old and died of old age, the man was murdered.
Anya Adams (12:58):
Yeah.
Latasha Gillespie (12:59):
And so it allowed us to be very intentional about our language and then be very intentional about our actions. So if the man was murdered and we believe that it was anti-Black racism specifically than the soln for that is not going to paint a kindergarten classroom. The soln for that is not tutoring. The soln for that is systems instruction, power, funding. That's the soln for that. So we can't keep tickling this thing, right?
Anya Adams (13:27):
How do you feel that transfers to your workplace? Because I feel like we've had these internal transitions. And I'm hearing from some of my friends that are working in these bigger corporations especially in Hollywood, that there's a little bit of resistance. That sounds like it's not so much at Bad Robot, but I'm wondering, at Amazon, while all of us are going through that collective experience, are you helping with the awakening that needs to happen to be able to speak things as they are? I think people still have a very hard time hearing those things.
Latasha Gillespie (13:57):
And it's good. It should be hard.
Anya Adams (13:59):
Yeah.
Latasha Gillespie (13:59):
You should be uncomfortable. That's where the growth is happening.
Anya Adams (14:02):
And so it's a safe environment in Amazon or where you are to be able to do that. Did you create that? Or how did that come to be that you guys feel safe in having these dialogues now?
Latasha Gillespie (14:12):
So, at Amazon Studios I think it always starts with leadership. Before I worked at Amazon studios, I actually worked for Amazon Corporate up in Seattle and then she came in as Head of Studios and I saw her from afar for a little while and just the night and day difference in how she moved and operated. We talk about the reckoning and the reconciliation we're having, people of color with white people over these issues. And I always say, there's white people and then there's people who happen to be white.
Anya Adams (14:36):
Yeah.
Latasha Gillespie (14:36):
And so people who happen to be white or the people that you see are very intentional about their actions, are very intentional about their language, are humble to seek diverse perspectives when it's an area that they don't know. And so when you see that and see how somebody moves you go, "Oh, I can rock with you." So when she asked me to come down to studios and stand up this work, I was like, "Absolutely." I have had a freedom and empowerment to do just that, to get us comfortable with language, to push back when people want to paint kindergarten classrooms and playgrounds and stuff, and be like, "No, no, no, that's not what we're going to do."
Fanshen Cox (15:10):
Right.
Anya Adams (15:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Latasha Gillespie (15:11):
"But you could go hire three black Latino and Asian writers. We fully support that. What kind of budget do you have?"
Anya Adams (15:17):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Miki Woodard (15:18):
Right.
Fanshen Cox (15:18):
But for real, I do think, what we know on this call and we know why we do this as Sista Brunch and I know about the two of you is for whatever reason, you all have a calling to do this work, right? And Latasha, you talked a little bit about religion and how it's your calling. Do you all get exhausted from it?
Fanshen Cox (15:39):
What do you do when you get tired?
Latasha Gillespie (15:43):
We get T-I-red, that's broke down tired. You don't get to shed this and I think it's really important too, for if you have teams that do this work, they live this in their day-to-day lives, their personal lives, then they live it at work, and then they're living it.
Miki Woodard (16:00):
Exactly.
Latasha Gillespie (16:01):
So, you have to protect your mental health. To me, that's the most important thing.
Fanshen Cox (16:05):
How do you do it Latasha and how do you do it Miki?
Latasha Gillespie (16:08):
And this year I didn't do well. I was so busy I think after the murder of George Floyd, standing up the things and putting one foot in front of the other and "Okay, there's an opening now that the earth has tilted. Move, let's go, action. Let's get some things done." But then there came a moment though where it washed over me and it was a crippling feeling. Because I have two Black sons, one just graduated from Howard and one with another year to go. I have a Black husband, I have a Black father. My brother, one of my brothers has been a victim of police violence and brutality. So sometimes when that stuff washes over you, when you have that moment to be still, you don't realize how it impacts you. And I actually had to take a little time to unplug and step away.
Anya Adams (16:49):
Which is amazing that you were able to do that. Because I do feel as Black women we do exactly what you were just saying, which is like, "Oh, there's an opening we got to go. Don't stop. Keep going. We got to go." And it's really hard for us to step back because it won't get done.
Latasha Gillespie (17:04):
It won't get done. We feel like it won't get done, but you know what? Listen, if we don't put our own oxygen mask on first, then we can't be of any good to anybody else. So, I'm a big believer in being open and transparent about mental health and I'm also a big believer in tiny baby Jesus and I'm also a big believer in therapy, and long baths.
Fanshen Cox (17:22):
Not bad, yes.
Anya Adams (17:26):
Miki looks like she has something to say about that.
Fanshen Cox (17:27):
Tell us Miki.
Miki Woodard (17:29):
I agree with everything Latasha just said, but I also think my lesson has been, balance is fleeting.
Anya Adams (17:37):
Yeah.
Miki Woodard (17:38):
So I can strive for it, I can say, "I got it. I got it this week. I got six hours of sleep, four nights out of the week." And then you realize the next week it's tipsy turvy again. And so for me, it is that kind of consistency in aiming for more consistency in thinking about myself, but it's really hard to do. And this work does become personal. And I also think a great point Latasha made is about the teams that you work with. Because you're not just holding up yourself, you're holding up your team. My team is a full team of color.
Anya Adams (18:19):
Oh, that's fantastic.
Fanshen Cox (18:20):
Yes.
Miki Woodard (18:21):
And so we are all absorbing this in our own ways, in our own communities, in our own families. I know for me, my saving grace has been during all of this, the opportunity to do this work and do it closer to my family, and that, and being here with them, you got to find what are the small wins, because there are pieces of this that I'm really grateful for and others that have been extraordinarily difficult.
Miki Woodard (18:50):
And also, I would say though, find that thing that brings you joy.
Anya Adams (18:56):
Hey you all, you're listening to Sista Brunch with Anya Adams and Fanshen Cox, we'll be right back.
Fanshen Cox (19:01):
Welcome back to Sista Brunch. I'm Fanshen, let's get back into this conversation with Latasha Gillespie and Miki Woodard. So of course, because this series is with Time's Up, has that also changed the way you work, even the choices you make at work, being involved with Time's Up?
Miki Woodard (19:32):
I would say yes for me, absolutely. Bad robot is connected to Time's Up and I think inspired by their boldness. That's what I would say. In a short amount of time, they've really been able to center equity and safety, not just as buzzwords, but to really think about, what does that mean? And what's actionable? And what does that mean for hiring? What does that mean at every stage of hiring? What does it mean for women that are juggling so much? What is the support that you need and the safety that you need to be yourself and bring yourself to all these situations? And so for us, it's something that we try to replicate internally in our culture, but also support and partner and amplify their goals and their work.
Anya Adams (20:27):
Did you create your job Miki or was it already in place?
Miki Woodard (20:31):
Both,
Anya Adams (20:32):
Okay.
Miki Woodard (20:32):
It was here. I absolutely stepped into this role but the role that I stepped into was a little bit different. It was much more focused on social impact and employee activations. And it has really broadened out to this piece that's dealing with culture and diversity. One story that I will share is that I am very close to my family and I feel like I'm following in the footsteps of my dad. My dad was a D&I leader.
Anya Adams (20:58):
Oh wow!
Fanshen Cox (21:00):
Oh wow!
Miki Woodard (21:00):
And he did this work at Dell. And I think it's rare.
Anya Adams (21:03):
Yeah.
Miki Woodard (21:03):
To have a parent that you've seen do this kind of work, that you've seen operate in these kinds of circles. And we had real conversations about that. We were very, very close and he is now passed away but I use his lessons and I use that example and absolutely bring that into the work that I do.
Anya Adams (21:23):
Did you feel like as you grew your position, there were any pushback or difficulty kind of broadening out, helping people see the benefit of what you were bringing?
Miki Woodard (21:35):
It's not easy.
Miki Woodard (21:38):
This work is not easy and I tell people, it actually gets harder before it gets easier. And that's when you know you're doing it right. Because the conversations are harder, the barriers that you discover are more specific. And so it wasn't necessarily convincing people. That wasn't the challenge. The challenge now is, there's so much that you can do. You got to prioritize it, you got to make progress in different areas. Because everybody is coming to this moment at the same time and is galvanized about that. You got to just make sure that what we're doing over here with content, that's going to stick, that's going to be sustainable.
Fanshen Cox (22:23):
That's the plan.
Miki Woodard (22:24):
And then we got to go over here and do the next piece. It's more of that and how big this role can be and just making sure that that growth really does equate to real longterm change. I'm about that.
Anya Adams (22:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Miki Woodard (22:39):
I don't have a minute to waste.
Anya Adams (22:40):
Right, right.
Fanshen Cox (22:41):
So true.
Anya Adams (22:43):
I hear you.
Fanshen Cox (22:43):
Your father, that's beautiful. So, it really is your calling. Your parents put that into place.
Miki Woodard (22:50):
My grandfather was a Tuskegee airman so that's the other cause.
Anya Adams (22:52):
Oh wow!
Fanshen Cox (22:52):
Oh wow! My goodness.
Miki Woodard (22:54):
I get that spirit of service.
Anya Adams (22:57):
Yeah.
Miki Woodard (22:57):
I think a lot about him as a young man, just volunteering to go down to Tuskegee, Alabama to the unknown.
Anya Adams (23:05):
Yeah. Wow!
Miki Woodard (23:07):
And do what he did. And then the last thing I'll say is my great, great, great, great grandmother graduated from Hampton Institute at the time in 1890.
Fanshen Cox (23:18):
Wow!
Miki Woodard (23:20):
I am fourth generation Hampton so-
Fanshen Cox (23:22):
My goodness!
Miki Woodard (23:24):
Legacy is important to me.
Anya Adams (23:26):
Yeah. Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (23:29):
Beautiful. Beautiful.
Anya Adams (23:30):
What about you Latasha? Did you create your job? Did you broaden it? What kind of roadblocks is it similar to Miki or?
Latasha Gillespie (23:37):
So, definitely have broadened it. So up until this role, most of the work that I had done in the DEI space was very internal employee-facing work. So kind of how most people traditionally think about it. One of the things that I realized in doing that work is one of the ways in which we accelerate the DEI work faster is really by the stories we tell. Because people have been doing unconscious bias training for 30 years and the Fortune 500 CEO list still looks like it looks. So I'm like, we're not going to train our way out of this. We have to do some different things. And I think, again, Time's Up has been amazing and really focusing on the right places to move the needle. And again, infrastructure change, not just performative change.
Anya Adams (24:23):
Right.
Fanshen Cox (24:23):
Right.
Latasha Gillespie (24:24):
And that's been really important and I'm really grateful. So one of the things in the past two and a half years since I've been down here and really in the last year, we've been really laser-focused on is about mechanisms. So, everybody has good intentions. Nobody wakes up and says, "I'm going to be racist today, I'm going to be sexist today, I'm going to be homophobic today, I'm going to block all these people from telling their story in an authentic..." Very few people wake up and actually say that.
Fanshen Cox (24:49):
Yeah.
Anya Adams (24:50):
Yeah.
Latasha Gillespie (24:50):
But it happens in every single decision. The marketing budget, the production budget, the release date, the distribution, the geographies and where we distribute the project. All those things matter for the sum of the good and so we've been trying to figure out ways and to Miki's point where it takes time is dismantling systems.
Fanshen Cox (25:10):
Yes.
Anya Adams (25:10):
Yeah, yeah.
Latasha Gillespie (25:11):
And so how do you get in there and dismantle the system? So my role has really evolved and that I am focused on customer-facing DEI work. So the diverse representation in front of the camera, behind the camera, above the line, below the line. The inclusive narratives that we tell so that we're not perpetuating harmful stereotypes and trends.
Anya Adams (25:30):
Thank you.
Latasha Gillespie (25:32):
And the equity of trying to rebuild these systems in an equitable way which is why Howard Entertainment was an important project for me to launch because I wanted to create a process to create more Black executives.
Fanshen Cox (25:45):
Yes.
Latasha Gillespie (25:45):
Right? So these Howard students are going through this program fully immersed, two semesters in LA, fully accredited. We pay their tuition, their housing, living stipends, because our philosophy is that if we remove the barriers, if we remove the obstacles and hurdles, all you have to do is show up and perform. And when they do, they show out.
Fanshen Cox (26:06):
We always show out, that's the thing I do believe some of the resistance is that when they do work with us and they're like, "Oh, you're running circles around everybody. We better not have you around because we got to work harder."
Latasha Gillespie (26:19):
That's important. But the green-light process for me is important. So now every green light we do has a DEI assessment. We're asking ourselves.
Fanshen Cox (26:27):
[inaudible 00:26:27] amazing.
Latasha Gillespie (26:28):
Yeah.
Miki Woodard (26:28):
Yes.
Latasha Gillespie (26:29):
Who you hire, how is that going to affect our overall numbers? Are there problematic things in this story? What mitigation opportunities, we have to fix them before the customers ever see them? All those things matter. And so not to say that we don't green-light some things that maybe don't appeal to Black and Brown audiences, but it's a conscious decision now versus "Oh, we've got five out of 10 that look like this."
Miki Woodard (26:54):
Yes,
Latasha Gillespie (26:55):
Right?
Anya Adams (26:56):
That's fantastic. That's really fantastic. And it's so exciting to hear that you guys were able to broaden your scope and your influence in such major companies. It's really exciting
Fanshen Cox (27:09):
And I love that when we were talking about self-care, something that we all want to be better at is delegating, but we don't have anybody to delegate to if these executives, especially those in executive position, how do you mentor if we're not there? I think both of you are also in Colour Entertainment with Kelly Edwards, Colour Entertainment, are you both doing that too?
Latasha Gillespie (27:34):
Yes, Kelly's amazing.
Fanshen Cox (27:36):
She's amazing. Yes. And so I love these programs. This is how we know we will be able to get our self-care because we are going to help mold and pave the way for the next executives. And then they'll be able to step in and help determine what the content is.
Anya Adams (27:55):
Fanshen and I did a podcast a couple months ago where we were talking about all these people calling us for lists. And our response was, "Well, what have you been doing to build those lists? Don't be fucking coming to, excuse my language. Why are you coming to me to pick my friends?"
Fanshen Cox (28:10):
It does get frustrating, yeah.
Anya Adams (28:11):
You all need to build your own-
Fanshen Cox (28:13):
If you don't-
Anya Adams (28:13):
We all are responsible for this. And to hear that you guys are doing that is so just great because it can't just be three people who hire.
Latasha Gillespie (28:23):
It needs to be everyone's responsibility, everyone's responsibility. And Black women, you talked about Kelly Edwards, let me just say women like Miki, like you, Fanshen, Kelly.
Fanshen Cox (28:35):
Yes.
Latasha Gillespie (28:35):
I came into this industry without the years of knowledge and background. I came from manufacturing and then tech and then whatever, right? Black women have been my saving grace. You hear me?
Miki Woodard (28:45):
Yeah, yes we do.
Fanshen Cox (28:47):
Yeah.
Anya Adams (28:47):
Yes.
Latasha Gillespie (28:47):
They have gotten on the phone with me and been like, "Here's what you need to know. Here's my network. Whatever you need, I got you."
Miki Woodard (28:56):
True.
Latasha Gillespie (28:57):
So I tell people all the time, people like to compare Prime Video and Netflix, and I'm like, "I don't know what you're talking about because my girl Verna over there, we meet [crosstalk 00:29:06] and share notes."
Anya Adams (29:07):
Yeah.
Latasha Gillespie (29:08):
There is no competition with that.
Anya Adams (29:09):
Right!
Miki Woodard (29:10):
Right.
Latasha Gillespie (29:10):
We are both mission-aligned on what we're trying to do in these organizations.
Fanshen Cox (29:14):
Yes. This is always my-
Anya Adams (29:15):
This is a whole different way of thinking than anyone has had in a long time. It's not like hoarding. It's like, how do we grow this? How do we grow Hollywood? We bring in those stories, we bring in those people, we bring in those idea, that energy.
Fanshen Cox (29:30):
And what Latasha is doing over here is working. This piece is working. Let's pull from this piece.
Miki Woodard (29:37):
100%.
Fanshen Cox (29:37):
What Miki is doing over here is working. Why can't we all pull from all these pieces?
Miki Woodard (29:40):
Yes. Make that path shorter. Let's learn from each other.
Anya Adams (29:45):
Yes!
Fanshen Cox (29:47):
I love it.
Anya Adams (29:48):
I love it.
Fanshen Cox (29:49):
Hey, it's Fanshen and you're listening to Sista Brunch. We'll be right back and if you haven't already, please follow us on Twitter @SistaBrunch.
Fanshen Cox (30:08):
We're back. Here's more of our conversation with DEI and Social Impact leaders, Latasha Gillespie, and Miki Woodard
Anya Adams (30:15):
Miki, would you like to talk about the colorism project?
Miki Woodard (30:20):
Yes. What I can say absolutely is one, we're grateful Fanshen your participation and help with this because what we're trying to do this fall is bring forth another tool. As we talk about the work that we all probably can benefit from, this is a topic that's often talked about, but how do we really think about what can we do to stop making the same mistakes? How do we empower the colleagues that we work with, the crew that we work with, the people to your point, they don't wake up wanting to cause harm?
Miki Woodard (31:00):
So with this tool on colorism, we want to tackle this really hard topic and talk about how we can all do this work thoughtfully, differently, and with the resources and education to hopefully make a different choice and have a lasting impact. And so we're working really hard with Time's Up, with Color of Change and with other organizations to bring this forward.
Fanshen Cox (31:29):
What I love about it is that I've had a colleague say before something along the lines of like, "When are you going to be satisfied?" and I'm like, "No, no, because every layer we pull back, we need to continue to pull back the layers. We need to understand whose voices aren't being heard." And so colorism, I think is one of those perfect examples of something that when we were just talking DEI, we were not thinking that, and this one is a tough one because it's internalized too, right? It's us also having to look in the mirror and think about our whole lives and how we've treated others and been treated based on it. So, I love that what we're saying is, "We don't stop this work. We keep going, we keep going, we keep going." And also I love, you all know because you've had meetings with me now. I sometimes I'm just like, "Fuck them!"
Fanshen Cox (32:24):
But your approach is helping me Miki which is, you can't go in with that, you've got to go in with "Here's all the info. You're actually not a Black person, you're not a dark-skinned Black person, you're not a light-skinned Black person so you've never thought about this before. So here are some resources for you to think about it." Or you are a dark-skinned Black person but you've never heard this terminology for it or these ways of thinking of it. So I've learned a lot from working with you and Keisha on just thinking about how you'd make that, especially that initial presentation. It's really helpful. And they're lucky that they are going to get it that way.
Miki Woodard (33:01):
Yes. Well, and I'm also grateful for Keisha Senter over at Monkeypaw.
Fanshen Cox (33:06):
Yes.
Miki Woodard (33:06):
Because it was Keisha that called me and said, "Let's try and do something together." So, excited to keep working on it.
Latasha Gillespie (33:12):
And then Fanshen when they ask you, when they push back, all you have to ask is, "So, I'm sorry, what lived experience are you using that-?"
Fanshen Cox (33:18):
Thank you. That would make you feel that you would have an input-
Anya Adams (33:24):
That you would even ask that question. That you would even ask that question.
Miki Woodard (33:27):
It's true.
Latasha Gillespie (33:27):
That is the caucasity of things. Right?
Anya Adams (33:29):
Yeah.
Latasha Gillespie (33:29):
When people with no lived experience.
Fanshen Cox (33:32):
Zero lived experience and you-
Anya Adams (33:35):
How much more are you going to take from me?
Fanshen Cox (33:43):
We are going to wrap up but let's-.
Latasha Gillespie (33:45):
What?
Fanshen Cox (33:46):
Trust you all will be back on We will have this again. Hopefully Time's Up will be like, "It was so fabulous, we're going to do 10 more." But do you two kind of have any final words especially about our women who listen, who, maybe they're growing up in West Virginia and they want to be in the industry, that really kind of want to follow in your footsteps. Have you got some kind of final words?
Latasha Gillespie (34:09):
For me, I think, I talked about leaning into the yes and doing things that scare you and this is something that I've come to in the latter part of my life. One of the reasons why I even change my hair all the time is it's a mechanism to make me comfortable being uncomfortable. Because I think as women, and as people of color, and then so women of color acutely, we are less risk-averse than our counterparts. And I started to do some self-analyzing on why that is. And I think it's because for most of us, we understand that even though we could be fourth-generation legacies like Miki talked about, in many cases, we are still the first or the only. We are very conscious of the fact that there were people who paid the ultimate sacrifice in many cases for us to sit in these seats.
Latasha Gillespie (34:57):
And so there's a part of us that doesn't want to let them down. And then we also have this recognition as we look around these board tables and see we are the only, that we're trying so hard to hold that door open and not shut it for those young women who are coming behind us. So, sometimes we have a tendency to play it safe because if they can get comfortable with us, then maybe they'll get comfortable with other people like us. And so we want to play it safe. And here's what I would tell you, is that there's a difference between playing to win and playing not to lose. So, when you're up in the game, it's two minutes left in the game, and you got to lead, you're just trying to protect the ball. But if you're trying to win, there's a different sense of urgency, there's a different hustle, there's a different mentality. There's a different...
Latasha Gillespie (35:44):
And right now I'm trying to play to win. If God allows, I'm over halfway through my life at this point and so every day has to count. And so I'm encouraging these young women. Take more risks, take more risks. If you're not living life on the edge, then you're probably taking up too much space. And that authenticity that comes from not trying to fit in somebody else's box, it frees you.
Fanshen Cox (36:07):
I love it. Okay. Miki, Miss Miki Woodard.
Miki Woodard (36:11):
I don't even know what else I can add to that because that is powerful. But what I would say is, in addition to everything Latasha just said, which is fabulous, be gentle with yourself. We are hard on ourselves.
Anya Adams (36:29):
Yes we are.
Miki Woodard (36:30):
Women of color, no matter what age, we are harder on ourselves. We think more critically about ourselves than anyone thinks about us. Be gentle with yourself, know your value, know your voice, know your vision. There is a role for all of us to play and be bold about that. There aren't a lot of us out here in entertainment but we're here.
Anya Adams (36:59):
Yeah.
Miki Woodard (37:00):
We're here. We are here. There are ways to find us that did not exist when I started.
Fanshen Cox (37:08):
Yes.
Anya Adams (37:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Miki Woodard (37:09):
And you might not always get the opening or the time that you're looking for in that moment. Don't let that make you stop. Keep going because one of us is going to answer.
Anya Adams (37:22):
Right.
Latasha Gillespie (37:22):
And Miki, it's not because we don't want to, right?
Anya Adams (37:24):
Yeah.
Miki Woodard (37:25):
A hundred percent.
Latasha Gillespie (37:26):
Yep.
Miki Woodard (37:27):
I do what I can, I know you do what you can. And there are many more of us that as you said earlier, our friends and colleagues around the industry, we're here for you.
Latasha Gillespie (37:38):
Yeah.
Miki Woodard (37:38):
So, while we are, reach out.
Fanshen Cox (37:41):
Beautiful. Thank you both so much.
Fanshen Cox (37:50):
Thank you so much for real for listening to Sista Brunch with Anya Adams and me Fanshen Cox. Don't forget to visit timesupfoundation.org. We are so grateful to them for having this series with us. You can find out more about their work and how to follow them on social. You can also follow us on Instagram @sistabrunchpodcast. We're also on Twitter as SistaBrunch and on Facebook at facebook.com/sistabrunchpodcast. And also please don't forget to subscribe and rate and review our show and share it with others.
Fanshen Cox (38:28):
This episode was created in partnership with the Time's Up Foundation. Our show producer is Brittany Turner, our executive producer is Christabel Nsiah-Buadi. We acknowledge that the land we record our podcast on is the original land of the Tongva people here in Los Angeles.
